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submitted 7 months ago by L4s@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world

Parents Sue Gaming Companies Over ‘Video Game Addiction’, Because That’s Easier Than Parenting::Video game addiction. Sigh. Big sigh, even. Like, the biggest of sighs. We've talked about claims that video game addiction is a documentable affliction in the past, as well as the pushback that claim has received from addiction experts, who have pointed out that much of this is being done to allow doctors to get…

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[-] jozza@lemmy.world 219 points 7 months ago

This author seems pretty comfortable mocking the concept of games being addictive.

Loot boxes need to stop for sure, but things like limited-time content are 100% designed to form habits and ultimately feed gaming addiction. Season passes or weekly achievements require you to log on and grind out challenges at regular intervals to avoid missing out on rewards that are required for competitive play.

I know plenty of people who have had to make an active choice to stop playing certain games because they found they couldn’t play the game ‘on their own terms’. It sucks as an adult, but kids without fully developed brains capable of rational thinking would stand no chance.

[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 65 points 7 months ago

things like limited-time content are 100% designed to form habits and ultimately feed gaming addiction. Season passes or weekly achievements require you to log on and grind out challenges at regular intervals to avoid missing out on rewards that are required for competitive play.

Hell, even subscription-based games like MMOs. After all, if you're paying every month for something, you want to get your money's worth.

[-] darkdemize@sh.itjust.works 15 points 7 months ago

There's a reason I used to call it World of Warcrack. That game was harder to quit than smoking cigarettes for me.

[-] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 15 points 7 months ago

That's part of why I never played WoW. I knew that I'd constantly be like "I'm paying for it I should be playing".

[-] EatATaco@lemm.ee 10 points 7 months ago

Funny, when I played it, it was always "wow, I'm really getting a good bang for my buck." It was a huge money saving for me because instead of going out to a bar an extra one or two nights a week, I stayed home and gamed online with friends. Never once did I think "I should play to make it worth it" I was making it worth it without a thought. lol

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[-] AeroLemming@lemm.ee 10 points 7 months ago

This is the real problem with subscriptions. Yes, they tend to be more expensive in the long run, but they also stress you out because you have to constantly think about whether or not you're getting your money's worth. If you buy a game, there's no stress because even if you're busy, you'll have plenty of time at some point in the future to get your money's worth.

[-] scorpionix@feddit.de 7 points 7 months ago

Depends on the implementation: I liked Eve Onlines model where, yes, you had to pay the sub but your character would train skills even while offline.So at least to me there was less of this classical fear of missing out.

[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 12 points 7 months ago

Ugh, don't get me started on EVE. Like yeah, there's an awesome game underneath it all, but the fact that they make you train your character in real time by reading skill books feels so scummy when they are billing you a monthly fee. Like that has such an obvious perverse incentive. You think those skill books take as long as they take because it's fun? No way. They take that long because it maximises profit.

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[-] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 106 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I don't want to be all old man yells at cloud, but back in my day popular games were played a lot because they were primarily enjoyable for the story, the achievement of completing a particular level or boss, playing against friends, etc. And sure, you'd have the odd bad parent trying to claim their kid was addicted to Counterstrike 1.6, but it was broadly speaking nonsense. The vast majority of games were offline, or had very limited online modes built around direct competition with other players (FPS, sports games, etc), and publishers would get all their money from the initial sale, with only a few games having expansion packs, most notable The Sims.

But in the early 2010s a few things changed:

  • broadband internet became ubiquitous in markets with high levels of existing gamers
  • distribution of games swapped from physical media to downloads
  • 'everyone' had a pretty powerful computer in their pocket making it much more accessible
  • a bunch of people in the industry started reading about positive psychology - the idea that you can create habits through rewards - and apply them to video games to increase playtime
  • those mechanics turned out to be very powerful in driving particular user behaviours, and started to be targeted at monetisation models - and so we got loot boxes, etc

So we went from a situation where video games were fun for the same reasons traditional games, or sports, are fun, to one where many video games include a lot of gambling mechanics in their core gameplay loops - loot boxes being the obvious one, but any lottery-based mechanic where you spend real money counts - in an industry with no relevant regulation, nor age limitation.

It is definitely possible for people to get addicted to these mechanics, the same way people can get addicted to casino games, or betting on horse racing, especially when for some games that is literally what the developer wants.

[-] bassomitron@lemmy.world 28 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I agree with all your major points, well said. I will only add that back in the late 90s, MMOs started to become more popular among PC gamers, and that those were definitely designed for mild addiction (to keep players paying a monthly fee).

After WoW took MMOs mainstream (by around 2010-2012 when its playerbase peaked), I feel that lines up perfectly with your observation that developers began incorporating more and more positive feedback loops into games. I only bring this up since I wonder if there's an actual correlation there (along with the other elements you pointed out regarding accessibility, etc.) or if it's just coincidental timing.

[-] d3Xt3r@lemmy.nz 17 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It had nothing to do with WoW, smartphones were basically to blame. 2007 was when the iPhone came out, Android followed next year, and by the early 2010s, smartphones became ubiquitous. Both the App Store and Google Market exploded exponentially in the number of apps and games. Mobile game makers soon figured out that microtransactions brought in more money than upfront payments. All the popular games started exploiting this model, such as Angry Birds, Temple Run and of course the infamous Candy Crush.

King, the company behind Candy Crush, generates over a billion dollars of revenue per year - their turnover exceeding that of several traditional PC/console game makers. In 2012, they staggering 1000% growth in just an year - and that was the trigger. That was when everyone looked at them going, "tf, why the hell are we wasting so much time and money developing AAA games, and making way less money than some cheap mobile game?"

And the rest as they say, is history.

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[-] killeronthecorner@lemmy.world 15 points 7 months ago

Has everyone forgotten coin-ops? Or maybe I'm just old.

This started a long, long time ago, pretty much at the birth of popular casual gaming. It's not part of the evolution, it was part of the blueprint.

[-] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 15 points 7 months ago

The thing with coin-ops, and arcades in general, is that you still had to physically go somewhere, and have the coins to keep playing. If you walked away, someone would take the machine. Worst case scenario, the machine stopped working when it ran out of coin/token space.

I'm not denying that there are similarities, and that ultimately every game ever has been built on a fundamental mechanic of risk/reward, but it was rudimentary and broadly speaking deterministic and visible to the user (you knew how to get a free ball in most pinball games, for example).

The combination of easy payments, of very high amounts, and online competitive play where the high rollers can be multi-millionaires from anywhere in the world, and a pay-to-win mechanic makes certain modern games not just addictive, but financially crippling, if played by someone susceptible to addiction.

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[-] kibiz0r@lemmy.world 96 points 7 months ago

One of my first tasks in my game development career was to change the data type used for the main currency in [Famously Addictive Farm Simulator Game], because a user had exceeded the maximum value.

I eventually found out approximately how much IRL money this person had spent on this game…

6 figures. And not barely 6 figures.

People don’t spend that much because they’re just having fun.

There is absolutely something different about these kinds of games. It’s abusive and dangerous, and we should consider it a health hazard.

[-] Jamie@jamie.moe 47 points 7 months ago

I'm glad this comment section seems to agree that some fault lies on the game companies, too. I get it that parents gotta also parent, but when games are hiring behavior/psychology experts to design their games to become addictive and suck in people's money as effectively as possible.. adults struggle enough with resisting gaming addiction, let alone kids.

I know a guy that spent all of his free time, and on average $2,000 a month, on Genshin Impact.

[-] EatATaco@lemm.ee 24 points 7 months ago

I have two kids. The idea that these games are not addictive is laughable. Something only someone without kids that have found roblox (or similar games) could possibly convince themselves is true. Even just looking at all FTP games I play, I can see how they are taking advantage of that need for the fix to pull money from you at the most opportune time. Lucky for me, I don't really have an addictive personality so I'm easily able to set aside those things.

But my kids have not developed the same level of self control or self-realization yet. They just continually want that dopamine hit. We definitely limit screentime and what they play (roblox is out now). In the times we have done "device free weeks" you can absolutely see the change in behavior from the withdrawal period right after you take away the game, to at the end of the week when they barely even complain at all that they can't play.

I remember when my older kid went away to sleep away camp for 2 weeks, and when he came back how his younger brother talking about the games seemed so foreign to him. He like had completely detoxed and didn't care at all.

There is definitely an element of parental responsibility here too. But you what the author doesn't seem to realize is that it's not so easy. All of the kids are playing games these days, and it is a common past-time. While you could just say "no games" and call it a day, I don't know of a single family that does this. Even the ones who are very strict allow their kids to play some switch games. Even the ones that think their kid has some kind of gaming addiction (and have taken away all online games) let's their kids play certain console games as well because they don't see it creating the same behavior. And if you open the door a bit, it's a constant battle trying to figure out where that line in, and you're competing against big money using experts to figure out how to win that game. It's an extremely hard game for a parent to win.

It would be much easier if it were illegal to use these intentionally addictive mechanisms in games targeted at non-adults.

[-] AeroLemming@lemm.ee 11 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I think the most important thing to teach young people in today's gaming market is that microtransactions are NEVER worth it. Yeah, maybe you want 500 gems to buy another builder or whatever, but then you'll be out $10 or however much it is and nothing fundamentally changes about your experience to make it $10 more fun. Games can actually become less fun when you start spending depending on the game, because then you're just paying to either win or make progress, which ruins the whole point of a game.

You should only ever pay money for actual content. Paying for the base game and certain types of DLC can be worthwhile. If the game has a currency you have to buy, you're probably getting scammed.

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[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 88 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I do feel like it's kind of a bad thing that many large game devs employ psychologists specifically to come up with ways that psychologically addict players. They could be addicting even without being specifically designed that way, but going out of your way to ensure it is does, does not seem the least but ethical to me.

[-] topinambour_rex@lemmy.world 34 points 7 months ago

Like EA who use the same technics that casinos for their loot boxes. But you have better odds with casinos than EA...

[-] bassomitron@lemmy.world 17 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

EA is hardly the only one doing that. I'd even argue that there are far more offensive examples, sadly. Just look at the mobile market, it's a cesspool of extremely exploitive tactics and even more accessible than traditional gaming.

[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 68 points 7 months ago

Yeah let's just disregard the prevalence of gambling mechanics deliberately intended to induce addiction in minors to juice them for their parents' cash.

[-] criticalthreshold@lemmy.world 21 points 7 months ago

Exactly. There's a lot more nuance than just 'oh video game good, can't control addiction, bad parents'.

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[-] Zeth0s@lemmy.world 67 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I won't read the article with such a stupid title.

In other situations they call it victim shaming. There is a reason laws exists to forbid gambling for minors. Many video games are built as loopholes to circumvent such laws. Publishers and producers must be punished for this. Parenting is not a relevant topic here, as we are talking about society.

In a society the distribution of parenting capabilities has large variability, and it does not always depends on the parents themselves, but also on environmental factors (such as work-related stressors).

As society we need to fight any predatory business model that exploits society and individuals weaknesses.

[-] Lmaydev@programming.dev 29 points 7 months ago

Many games work on the exact same feedback loop as gambling. Squeezing as much dopamine out of your brain as they can.

Big companies spend a huge amount on psychologists to make their games as addictive as possible.

The same way my parents had no idea how dangerous the internet could be in the late 90s, many parents won't know about this.

[-] SuperSpruce@lemmy.ml 16 points 7 months ago

This is my biggest concern about video games when I become a parent. My parents were far more concerned about "violence," but I'd rather have a 10yo child play doom than candy crush. One might initially look more dangerous to the untrained eye, but looks can be deceiving.

[-] Lmaydev@programming.dev 10 points 7 months ago

100% I've pushed my kids towards games like Minecraft and Stardew Valley. Games that need a bit of focus and planning rather than quick fire rounds full of ads or micro transactions.

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[-] HiddenLayer5@lemmy.ml 64 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Yes parents need to parent their kids first and foremost. However, we can't keep just giving video game companies a pass for intentionally making their games addictive. When they're literally hiring psychologists to pinpoint target their games for a child's brain, that's also a problem. Both need to be addressed.

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[-] pete_the_cat@lemmy.world 45 points 7 months ago

This isn't shitty parenting, companies are intentionally creating addictive mechanics in games. Instant gratification causes a release of dopamine, which keeps the person playing over and over again. It's the reason why people "grind".

They're virtual Skinner Boxes. If you don't know what that is, I suggest looking up the term and B. F. Skinner himself.

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[-] the_q@lemmy.world 44 points 7 months ago

Aren't a lot of current games built with gambling mechanics built in? Is that not done with the intention of wanting a person to keep playing and buying? I agree parents should be policing their children's activity, but these companies shouldn't get a pass for creating the fire people burn themselves on.

[-] dojan@lemmy.world 39 points 7 months ago

In the past I might've been more critical of the parents, but honestly in this day and age?

Large publishers and developers exist to exploit people. They exploit workers by overhiring, overworking, and then firing them gracelessly whenever they've managed to push out the next paint-by-numbers turd they have planned. It releases to the public in an unfinished state, yet the consumer is expected to shell out hundreds of dollars not only for the base game, but for season passes, FOMO mechanics, in-game shops, gambling and other anti-consumer bullshit.

They scheme to create more and more insidious systems to keep the player hooked, all the while they're abusing their workers, playing with their lives, and sometimes literally stealing from them.

The modern AAA gaming industry is worse than it ever has been, and these parents aren't wrong; the games are designed to be addictive. They'd outright encourage people to mortgage their home and steal their parents' credit cards if they thought they could get away with it.

[-] JakenVeina@lemm.ee 34 points 7 months ago

"Parents Sue Cigarette Companies Over 'Tobacco Addiction', Because That's Easier Than Parenting"

When a company makes a product they don't just KNOW is harmful, but BECAUSE it's harmful, and they've ENGINEERED it to be harmful, for the sake of profit, it ceases to be solely about parenting.

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[-] Tosti@feddit.nl 33 points 7 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)
[-] FinalRemix@lemmy.world 15 points 7 months ago

Exactly. These are carefully designed to drip-feed dopamine rewards and keep maximizing "engagement" to maximize resultant profit, or at the very least, minimize the time the user spends doing anything else (including playing a competitor's game).

Parents barely stand a chance. In child education lit, we're still relying on old 90s tropes of "don't let your kid sit in front of the TV too long" and "no more than two hours, preferrably maxed at one hour, for screentime of any screen per day".

"Do you know where your kids are?" has been replaced by "have your kids gone outside today?"

[-] Daxtron2@lemmy.ml 26 points 7 months ago

There's absolutely a level of addictive manipulation in some games targeted towards children, but on the other hand, you are responsible for making sure your child doesn't participate in their systems. Fault on both parties.

[-] Vqhm@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Who's educating the parents on what's going on in the games? The casinos? The slot machines? The sports betting apps?

Where do the average learn about these things?

All well and good if you are fairly well educated and know about some of the psychology going on. But damn I do not have any hope for the next generation raised on tick tocks as the GOP dismantle public education.

It's going to quickly get like Idiocracy in here all the while bystanders will say, but the parents working two minimum wage jobs to put food on the table and a roof over their head should have taken responsibility for their child!

People fall through the cracks and we all as society benefit when we are responsible enough to try to make sure the cracks can't just swallow you whole.

Shit, I've got 3 university degrees and top certifications for my specify IT field and wouldn't know much about this topic if it weren't for Sout Park Freemium Isn't Free.

We can't depend on being educated or involved with children to protect them from 24/7 365 always online dopamine addiction to compulsion loops.

[-] HexesofVexes@lemmy.world 19 points 7 months ago

I mean, the gambling industry uses some mobile games as learning material in how to snare players and trigger "that next button press" (source, I used to work for a large gambling company).

So, there are grounds to argue addiction on the same level as gambling addiction for some games.

[-] plz1@lemmy.world 18 points 7 months ago

The fact that most modern AAA games have some sort of "loot box" (aka actual gambling) mechanic, and those mechanics are literally identical to the design patterns for slot machines, seems to be completely missed by the author of this article. Gambling addition is a real thing, and pushing that psychological behavior pattern onto impressionable youths should be illegal. As a citizen of the US, I can't legally go online and gamble with real money directly, but I can get the same "fix" by playing most of the big titles from EA (with real money, just one layer deeper, and with no way to get my winnings back into the real world), says a lot.

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[-] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 points 7 months ago

It's also worth noting microtransactions and other player-directed revenue-enhancement schemes have been featured in games while still not being noted (even as gambling mechanics — Looking at you, EA lootboxes) by the ESRB, belying its funtion to protect children from adult content.

To this day, AAA games are offered in bad faith as adversarial to the player with the interest of exploiting them.

I'm not sure if the parents angle is the way to address these issues, but then out legal system really gives no fucks about the good of the public, case in point, SCOTUS stripping people of rights while giving corporations extended privileges.

[-] Kushia@lemmy.ml 17 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Never get your mental health advice from a "technology consultant" especially one that quotes things like the DSM-5 without the required knowledge on how to apply it.

The DSM moves at a glacial pace as does many academic publications as it takes an extremely conservative approach to declaring new disorders. Most of the time it tries to classify things like "gaming addiction" under the general addiction category rather than make a new separate category for a specific form of it. Being addicted to anything including gaming is still a form of addiction and the lack of a specific category for it in the DSM doesn't mean it magically doesn't exist.

Tldr: this technology consultant is clueless about stuff outside of his field. Just because it beeps and boops doesn't make him a mental health expert on the use of it.

[-] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 16 points 7 months ago

I love it when the title of an article tells me the opinion I'm supposed to have.

The fact is there's a lot of work that goes into designing games to drive behavior. The article details some of the work that game designers do to induce compulsive behavior, like occasional free gifts to keep people from getting frustrated with certain levels. The article then poopoos this idea by pointing out that heroin addicts never get free heroin from their dealers so this can't be a real addiction. Wanna learn a fun fact that I know as a recovering addict that y'all don't know? Your dope dealer will take a short. He'll sell you a ten dollar bag for five dollars. Not every time, but every once in a while, and for the exact same reason that these games do it: he wants you stuck in, he wants you in his debt in particular and he wants you coming back to him. A sick junkie doesn't make anyone any money, we mostly just lie in bed and sob. It keeps you in the reward loop, the same as free gifts to get you past frustrating parts of a video game.

The article also acknowledges that gaming addiction is in the DSM, but tries to dismiss that as well based on notes that say further research is needed. Further research is always needed for everything, especially to do with mental health. The fact that it's in the DSM at all means that, while they may not have found the fire, they can feel heat and smell smoke. The article even concedes that 13 hours of gaming/day indicates that "something is going on here on a psychological level" but because it's not at the level of an active heroin addiction it's not worth discussing despite the author's intuition that "something is going on here" combined with the opinion of the mental health community that, from the article about the DSM linked in this one, "There is neurological research showing similarities in changes in the brain between video gaming and addictive substances."

I get it. I grew up in the 90s, when video games were new and scary and were gonna make us all smoke crack and shoot up our schools. This harmless hobby of mine was scapegoated into being the cause of so many of society's ills, and it turned out to be 100% bullshit every time. But this is different. The people who design games are open about the fact that this compulsivity is what they're designing for. The people who study this sort of behavior have already given the phenomenon a name, they're studying it and they see it as a growing phenomenon. It's likely to end up like beer, where there are people who can enjoy it sometimes in a healthy manner and people who can't. From the psychiatry.org article linked in the OP's article, it seems to be about 1% of gamers who develop problematic behavior around gaming.

[-] nonetheweiser@lemm.ee 14 points 7 months ago

Just chiming in to say that this is a garbage take. Games that are successfully designed to be addicting to adults are fishing with dynamite when it comes to targeting kids whose pre-frontal cortexes are still developing and lack the judgement and self-control to know when enough is enough.

Putting the onus on the parent isn't fair, either. On one side there's a massive corporation who employs psychologists to make their product more addicting. On the other side is a parent (or parents) who, yes, at worst are absentee and use screens as babysitters, but a lot of parents I see who struggle with this mean well but just don't understand this world. They're younger gen X or older millennials who weren't into video games growing up, aren't tech-literate the same way that this writer is, and simply want to help their kids get involved in the same stuff their friends are. They accidentally expose their kids to this greedy machine that wants to consume their every waking moment and thought for profit.

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[-] sandriver@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 7 months ago

I get the feeling that "Techdirt" may be a bit biased.

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[-] kaiomai@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago

Good! Hit them in the wallet for their abhorrent behavior.

[-] spudwart@spudwart.com 9 points 7 months ago

Okay I understand that kneejerk "Be a good parent" reaction. But IMO that ship has sailed. And the more we tell parents to "be good parents" the more they think that means attending the local book burning.

Also, no sympathy to game publishers that make their games into dopamine casinos. Back in the good old days, video games (like all other media) was an art form, and the profits came from being a good work of art. Now it's a fucking nightmare capitalist cash cow milking machine (like all other media).

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[-] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 7 months ago

As a disabled adult latchkey kid, we've given up on actual parenting (that is, letting the US public actually have the time and energy to parent) for half a century now. In the 1970s it took all adults working to support a houshold (contast one working adult and a homemaker in the 1950s) yet the quality of life didn't improve. We passed parenting on to teachers, and then gave them larger classes.

[-] robocall@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago

If only gaming companies could figure out how to get kids addicted to algebra.

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this post was submitted on 19 Nov 2023
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