This shit is why end to end encryption is so important.
All platforms, no matter how trustworthy, can be corrupted. No e2e, no privacy.
this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2024
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But this is intentional. TG's ToS forbids alternative clients with their own E2EE.
Also he's the VK founder, which kills any idea of "trustworthy" immediately.
It's part of TG's business model, I think, something in the price list for governments. And the way they treat alternative clients in reality also hints that maybe backdoors are as well. Say, a new message format of the day (they add them really often) arrives in a new official Telegram version, somehow it's nowhere to be seen in the channels and groupchats you're in, but some day a DM arrives with harmless text and some code runs on your client machine.
I use Telegram, but trusting it would be asinine. Even trustworthy services can be abused, and TG doesn't even pretend to be that.
I think he got arrested because happening to be in Baku for a couple weeks and then still be there at the same time with Putin-Aliyev meeting, and their agreements apparently having intersections with Durov's activity, is openly weird.
Reminds me of the Anom phone. E2E encryption, but the whole thing was run by law enforcement.
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Useless. Current allegations are related to the absence of moderation. Moderation of public content, in public channels or chats. As you can guess, end to end encryption does not protect public content.
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What crimes did he personally commit?
From translating TFA:
Justice considers that the absence of moderation, cooperation with law enforcement and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) makes it complicit in drug trafficking, child crime offenses and fraud.
Same reason Russia wanted to arrest him, failure to do the government's bidding.
By that logic we should arrest all Car company CEOs for being complicit in crime lol, it's not exactly his choice what people do with his product
Not really comparable because the illegal content is hosted and distributed through his servers. Which is why most sites are moderated to a degree. This dude basically said "fuck off" whenever takedowns were issued. It's hardly a surprise that he's been arrested.
Illegal content is distributed through snail mail and telephones too, but those are common carriers so they aren't liable. Why should Telegram be any different?
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The analogy works if you lease or rent.
Rent a car, commit a crime, boom — rental company is on the hook apparently. Moronic.
The rental company, on the other hand, is more than willing to turn you in to not be considered liable. Which they probably would be if they impeded an investigation.
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But, have you noticed that after committing a crime, criminals and felons usually escape.... using a car?
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The criminals ate bread before the heist, better round up all the grain farmers
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Next they’ll make encrypting your own files illegal. Absolutely preposterous. Do better police work!
Next up, outlawing pencil erasers and flammable paper
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Told Russia to fuck off, and now France is complicit.
Tells us a lot about how governments view Telegram.
has nothing to do with Russia, according to the linked article
Pourquoi était-il sous la menace d'un mandat de recherche ?
La Justice considère que l’absence de modération, de coopération avec les forces de l’ordre et les outils proposés par Telegram (numéro jetable, cryptomonnaies…) le rend complice de trafic de stupéfiants, d’infractions pédocriminels et d’escroquerie.
Ce mandat de recherche courait si, et seulement si, Pavel Durov se trouvait sur le territoire national.
En effet, Telegram est une ruche pour les contenus criminels. En ce moment, la plateforme fait l'actualité avec la diffusion illégale des matchs de Ligue 1. Mais sur cette messagerie chiffrée, de nombreux comptes sont utilisés par la criminalité organisée. Au-delà du terrorisme, les plus dangereux pédocriminels communiquent sur Telegram pour échanger des contenus. "C'est devenu depuis des années LA plateforme numéro 1 pour le crime organisé", commente un enquêteur.
even if it's not about telegram, this might help to understand ☞ https://www.laquadrature.net/en/2023/12/15/encryption-discussion-during-the-8-december-trial-from-myth-to-reality/
Several of the defendants were questioned about their use of tools and software such as Signal, Tor and Tails, and about the encryption of their computers and hard drives. The questioning followed the same pattern as the prosecution’s investigations, which we revealed a few months ago: a huge amount of confusion as to the technical understanding of these tools combined with a suspicious approach to their actual use. Three defendants were questioned about their motivation for using such software, as if a well-argued justification was needed, even though the tools are perfectly normal, legal and ordinary.
“It is possible and not forbidden to have these tools, but we can ask ourselves why dissimulate information” the president of the court stated. Suspicion of clandestinity coupled with little knowledge of the subject was evident in their questions: “You explain that the use of this ‘kind of network’ [Signal] was to preserve your privacy, but are you afraid of being monitored?”. Or: “Why did you think it was important or a good idea to find out about this ‘kind of environment’ [the Tails operating system]?”.
Thanks for that.
So basically, "Why are you hiding from us? Only criminals hide, so you must be hiding criminal activity!"
From the article
The Justice considers that the lack of moderation, cooperation with the forces of law and order and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) makes it complicit in drug trafficking, paedo criminal offences and fraud.
But a lot of people are speculating they just fabricated claims to arrest him because Telegram is russian.
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Sounds like French law enforcement wants a police state that supercedes the civil rights of the public.
You know, the French public have a reputation for getting ugly when the state gets uppity.
That sword over Damocles is swaying in the breeze.
French law enforcement wants a police state
Not at all.
But by tradition in this country, the police has a more "robust" way of doing things. Makes no sense to judge that by other countries' ways.
Looks like France is enforcing chat control 2.0 a bit prematurely.
The EU council is meeting to discuss it again on October 10. A new vote is likely in mid-December. Many parties and countries have turned their coat to support the proposal.
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English language story from Reuters (no paywall) for anyone that doesn't speak French...
"criticism from X owner Elon Musk who said that free speech in Europe was under attack."
Comes from the guy who bans certain words and anything negative about him on X. Oh the irony.
Rules for thee not for me
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Firefox french translation, not perfect but usable.
Why was he under threat of a research mandate?
The Justice considers that the lack of moderation, cooperation with the forces of law and order and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) makes it complicit in drug trafficking, paedo criminal offences and fraud.
This research mandate ran if, and only if, Pavel Durov were in the national territory. "He made a pellet tonight. We don't know why... Was this theft just one step? In any case, it is ready-made", slips a source close to the investigation to TF1/LCI. Ever since he knew himself persona non grata in France, Pavel Durov used to travel to the Emirates, to the countries of the former USSR, to South America ... He had travelled very little in Europe and avoided the countries where Telegram is under surveillance.
What now?
Investigators from the National Anti-Fraud Office attached to the Customs Directorate (ONAF) notified him and held him in police custody. He should be presented to an investigating judge this Saturday evening before a possible indictment on Sunday for a multitude of offences: terrorism, narcotics, complicity, fraud, money laundering, concealment, child-criminal content...
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Unlike other chat services Telegram has a “social” aspect and search capabilities for locating public discussion channels.
Furthermore E2EE is optional and most people don’t turn it on and is certainly not on in public channels.
While techies are freaking out about an attack on encryption the articles I’ve read so far don’t mention anything about encryption or otherwise it seems that French police is concerned about moderation or attempts at moderation of those public channels, that Telegram specifically refuses to moderate.
Perhaps this will be an attack on encryption by stealth but at this point that’s not what it looks like.
As a personal anecdote when I installed Telegram a few years ago and searched for my city’s name the top 20 results where channels offering to sell you heroin - which I thought was so blatant as to be certain it was police sting operations - but who knows.
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And some people think Brazil is being extreme on putting fines for X (Twitter) to pay for not blocking some accounts.
This guy is accused of being accomplice to crime just for creating and maintaining the platform where criminals do their dealings.
The road is downhill, my friends.
If somebody runs a market hall and allows stalls to be set up where narcotics and CSAM is being sold, and profits from it, and ignores police requests to stop it, I would like something to happen against that person. That person is complicit.
What I can’t understand is why telegram doesn’t just set up the some moderation systems. Most of their growth surely doesn’t come from drug dealers and pederasts? It feels like it would be a tiny element of it and not worth the hassle.
I suspect Durov doesn’t like dealing with big teams and can’t be bothered.
I’m a heavy user of Telegram (average about 1h of screen time every day, and pay for Telegram Premium) entirely because all my friends are on it and that’s because it is the best messaging client BY FAR. I’d love not to share this platform with criminals.
Since when did fighting crime become a “totalitarian state” thing to do?
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to take into consideration:
The Russia-born entrepreneur lives in Dubai, where Telegram is based, and holds dual citizenship of France and the United Arab Emirates.
Reeks of the chat history access attempts and the like, or is it just my paranoia?
My plug is on Telegram. Afaik (at least in France) it's mostly used to sell drugs. I'm not surprised the police would like their cut
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