this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023

481 points (100.0% liked)

News

23001 readers

3428 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil

Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.

2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.

Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.

3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.

Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.

4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.

Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.

5. Only recent news is allowed.

Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.

6. All posts must be news articles.

No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.

7. No duplicate posts.

If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.

8. Misinformation is prohibited.

Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.

9. No link shorteners.

The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.

10. Don't copy entire article in your post body

For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

rjc@lemmy.world

Thekingoflorda@lemmy.world

gedaliyah@lemmy.world

Blackbeard@lemmy.world

little_cow@lemmy.world

jeffw@lemmy.world

481

Deere must face US farmers' 'right-to-repair' lawsuits, judge rules (www.reuters.com)

submitted 10 months ago by throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to c/news@lemmy.world

43 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 43 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 77 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Deere is fleecing farmers so badly. It's ridiculous that they can't fix their own equipment. In the 1950s and 1960s, farmers got a lot of mechanical knowledge from learning to fix their tractors and other vehicles, so they not only saved money, they gained practical skills they could apply to other vehicles. At the very least, they should be able to take these things to a third party, preferably locally-owned, mechanic shop to get them fixed.

I realize right to repair is important for our internet devices, but this is so much more important. This makes our food prices higher.

[–] LifeOfChance@lemmy.world 25 points 10 months ago

Exactly there is so many different fields effected by the right to repair. Farmers in my opinion got it the worst. So many simple and basic repairs prevented because of it too. Loads of them went from not being super tech savvy to learning how to hack their machines or hiring people who specialize in doing so.

[–] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

I realize right to repair is important for our internet devices, but this is so much more important. This makes our food prices higher.

It's not a competition. I was disappointed to see the progress that had been made was limited to only certain markets. No one should have a monopoly on repairing or customizing anything from tractors to phones and computers to appliances to cars and whatever other directions I haven't thought of. It should only be knowledge, skills, tools, and parts that determine whether or not you can repair something, not design (including requiring tools for their obscurity rather than for their usefulness).

[–] ikidd@lemmy.world -3 points 10 months ago

As someone that owns several Deere tractors, there are no restrictions on mechanical repairs, I can buy parts all day long to do everything up to and including replacing every one of the 20,000 parts on a tractor.

I don't know what people are pointing to as not being able to repair, but I've never encountered it. Maybe flashing a custom firmware on the ECM? But why the hell would I want to do that, except to blow the engine up when I need the damn thing?

[+] ShadowRam@kbin.social -44 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

You have to understand Farmers.

It's not about right to repair. They are perfectly capable of repairing their equipment. And no one is forcing them to buy John Deere. There are a LOT of OEM's out there in all sectors to choose from. If they don't like the black box that's running their equipment, there's nothing stopping them from buying a blank controller and programming it themselves.

It's about them wanting to circumvent systems. Whether they are safety systems to prevent injury, safety systems to prevent excessive damage to the machine, or regulatorily systems for emissions.

Famers want to bypass that shit constantly.

They want to put cheap shit diesel into their engine and who gives a shit about the environment.
They want to run their machine at 120% constantly. And then bitch to the OEM their machine broke too soon and wants warranty.
They don't want to wear a seatbelt, or have a seat switch in their cab, or a spring return propel joystick. They want to rig up a bungy cord to the throttle and get out of their seat to go look at something while it drives.

Farmers weld up some of the STUPIDEST and most dangerous contraptions that I've ever seen with absolutely no education/calculations as far as frame weight/load or torque requirements/etc. "My Daddy did it back in his day, so I should do it too!!!"

And yet we get farm accidents/injuries constantly, including CHILDREN. And yet none of them are ever charged or imprisoned with running an un-safe environment/operation like any other industry would. You can't have a 14-year old driving around a forklift in a factory without getting into serious trouble, but sure let them run a combine or tractor.

Farmers wanting access to source code is 100% because they want to disable shit.
It has nothing to do with repair, it has nothing to do with adding 3rd party shit. You can already do that. I do that on a daily basis for a huge list of OEM's both in and out of the ag industry.

They already have the right to repair. Nothing is stopping them. The only thing stopping them is that you need a little more knowledge these days than basic mechanics and some welding skill.

If someone doesn't like John Deere. Stop buying fucking John Deere. You want to have full control of your machine? Grab a mobile controller and have at it. No one is stopping you.

There's nothing special about John Deere. 90% of their shit is standard J1939 protocol, and the few proprietary messaging that is John Deere specific is available if you ask, or you can sniff it out easily.

All locked down maintenance stuff is 100% there to record and verify that the farmer is taking care of the equipment properly.

The amount of "I want warranty!!!!" bitching, but they didn't change any filters, abused the machine, or used it for something it wasn't designed for is far worse than any car mechanic shop you've ever seen.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 36 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Found the John Deere rep.

[–] netburnr@lemmy.world 16 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I didn't read past the part where he said there are other choices.

To me that's all that matters in his reply...you will notice a ton of other brands in use these days, brands that don't do shitnlike JD. Take your money to one of those brands and laugh as JD dies a self inflicted death.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 8 points 10 months ago

These kinds of things tend to spread if the early implementers are not reigned in, resulting in no choice after a few years.

[–] oatscoop@midwest.social 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

So ... what part of that has anything to do with a farmer getting screwed when their equipment breaks down and they're locked out of effecting a repair they're more than capable of doing?

When they're racing time and the weather waiting on an overbooked repair tech that can get them in at their convenience a few days from now, and charge an arm and a leg for the pleasure? Who's liable to tell them they need to bring it to the shop 50+ miles away?

Sure: they could buy another brand ... that doesn't work as nearly as well. That's not compatible with the $500k+ of JD equipment and attachments they already own. That isn't well supported in their region.

Farmers aren't pissed because JD is preventing them from doing stupid shit. They're pissed because JD is using every anti-consumer practice in the book to extract as much money as possible from a captive market and fucking them at the same time.

warranty

Warranties don't cover damage from abuse, misuse, and user modifications already.

[–] ikidd@lemmy.world -4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

YOU CAN BUY ALL THE PARTS YOU NEED TO FIX YOUR TRACTOR.

The person you're replying to is absolutely correct. The only thing you can't do is legally modify the firmware on the controllers because that is usually done to bypass emissions controls. There are 10,000 page manuals supplied by Deere to diagnose and repair every part of their machinery. I have used them many times. I have never taken a tractor in to a Deere dealer to repair for any other reason than "I don't have time to deal with this right now".

Jesus, the misinformation on this subject is depressing, as is the willingness of people to accept it without a hint of critical thinking or research.

[–] oatscoop@midwest.social 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

The only thing you can’t do is legally modify the firmware on the controllers because that is usually done to bypass emissions controls

We are talking about basic access to the software in a way that allows diagnosing and repairing problems.

Every major part of a tractor is computer controlled and "smart", and because of that JD locks the owner out from accessing diagnostic information or swapping parts. Doing so requires hooking up a laptop with JD Service Advisor -- which isn't available to anyone apart from JD service techs.

The GPS module (or any other "smart" part) died and you want to swap it with an identical spare you have on hand? Tough shit, you need to call a tech to hook their laptop up before the computer will accept the new part. Want "trouble codes" to diagnose a problem -- too bad, you don't have JD Service Advisor to pull them. Fix a problem and want to take the tractor out of "trouble mode" ... nope.

As for "modifying firmware": the firmware controls everything. You can't use 3rd party parts, and you can't even use older (but still working) John Deere parts that are "unsupported".

Jesus, the misinformation on this subject is depressing

Yeah, by people that have obviously never touched JD equipment.

[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

There are hundreds of diagnostic addresses and values you can pull up on the minidisplays on every piece of equipment, as well as diagnostic codes that have been more than sufficient to use to follow the diagnostic procedures the Deere provides in any case that I've ever dealt with. That diagnostic manual is another 10,000 page manual that deere supplies and if you're bright enough, you can fix anything. The wire numbers, circuit diagrams, test procedures, etc, etc, etc are all in there, but most farmers can't be arsed to buy a multimeter it would seem. Most farmers that bitch about R2R wouldn't grease their own combine if they can help it, let alone replace a turbo.

There are a certain number of parts like stepper motors etc that have CanBUS addresses that need to be programmed into the controllers so they can address the part correctly over J1939. So in those rare cases, I've gotten a tech to drive by on their way to another call, and spent $50 having them sync up the address, it's not difficult. We are able to buy the JDSA systems now but it's very much not worth the cost, $26000 the last time I checked.

And you're plain wrong about the GPS, I've swapped around antennas and moved around 2630 systems with no need to call anyone. I think they're overpriced shit compared to what I can build myself with AgOpenGPS, but they work fine for the standard idiot.

obviously never touched JD equipment

Pretty sure I know which one of us that describes.

[–] militaryintelligence@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You could cut yourself with the knife you just bought. We have dulled it for your safety.

[–] ShadowRam@kbin.social -5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

That's a stupid ignorant analogy. A knife doesn't suddenly lose control and smash into things, or activate when it's not supposed to. Or have the capability to store energy and release it. Engineers are morally and legally obligated to make their products safe to use.

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

That's hella interesting. What's your field if I may ask?

[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

You are not wrong.

[–] CADmonkey@lemmy.world 74 points 10 months ago (2 children)

John Deere is creating a national security issue by not allowing tractors to be repaired, change my mind.

[–] LegionEris@feddit.nl 15 points 10 months ago (2 children)

The war in Ukraine proves that farm equipment can and will be converted to war machines during times of crisis. Irreparable tractors will leave our boys in the heartland unable to adequately defend themselves in a land war! We need national security arguments for more things. Our overseas presence is strong, but our homeland is a mess.

[–] CADmonkey@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Well there's that too. 🤣 But I was referring to a tractor's primary function, which is growing food. Havimg a harvest rot in the field because some dipshit needs the line to go up is a problem.

[–] LegionEris@feddit.nl 4 points 10 months ago

I'm just trying to sell the idea to the war fetishists who get to make all too many decisions around here x_x Rural conservatives voting for the party their daddy and grandaddy did will vote to turn their tractors into tanks. Forget the temporarily embarrassed millionaires. We need the temporarily embarrassed generals vote.

[–] tryitout@infosec.pub 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Sounds like tractors need to be ITAR controlled.

[–] Fosheze@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

I know youre joking but I used to work for an ITAR electronics manucacturer that also made a lot of parts for the ag industry. So we literally did make tractor parts that were mostly ITAR complaint. All we would have really needed to do to make those parts completely compliant is switch up some of the suppliers used for those products.

[–] DahGangalang@infosec.pub 14 points 10 months ago

National Security?

Bro, you're thinking too small - this affects the security of all mankind on Earth. With falling yields from Ukraine and other conflict growing around the world, I except agricultural output to dip DRASTICALLY in the coming years. This means it will more than likely fall to the Deer dominated production area to take up the slack and feed humanity.

I wish US regulators would see the importance of agriculture and would stop letting multi-billion dollar companies bully the actual producers of our food chain.

[–] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 33 points 10 months ago (2 children)

For those not familiar, John Deere did the Keurig 2.0 thing with their tractors. Instead of unofficial coffee pods though, it's every part of a tractor.

[–] penquin@lemm.ee 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I actually don't know what happened with Keurig, but I've been following the right to repair movement very closely.

[–] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 21 points 10 months ago (1 children)

They added drm to the pods, so you can only use official ones. People have essentially hacked it at this point, but the anti-consumer goal was the same.

[–] penquin@lemm.ee 14 points 10 months ago (1 children)

That's fucked up. I hate that are in constant battles with these corporations to own what the fuck we actually bought and paid for.

[–] Sabata11792@kbin.social 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Our glorious share holders would like you to use the terms "rented" and "subscribed".

[–] teft@startrek.website 7 points 10 months ago (2 children)

When do we start being called serfs?

[–] penquin@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago

They can all suck a fat dick. They can share it if they want.

[–] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago

1980

[–] remotelove@lemmy.ca 15 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Keurig tried to QR code all of their pods so third party ones wouldn't work. Super simple hacks were quickly released. It was in the name of "consumer safety" or some shit like that.

https://www.mashupmom.com/top-four-ways-to-hack-your-keurig-2-0/

[–] penquin@lemm.ee 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Wtf 😂 That's fucked.

[–] remotelove@lemmy.ca 14 points 10 months ago (2 children)

When this originally happened, some guy 3D printed a plastic cap hack for the machines and was sending them to people for as close to free as he could. (I think it was a clip-on thing for the machine, not for each pod. I tried to look for it again, but it looks like most people preferred the per-pod hacks.)

It was a glorious "fuck you!" to Keurig regardless of how it was hacked.

[–] be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social 10 points 10 months ago

Coffee from San Francisco Bay coffee (Formerly Rogers Family Coffee) still includes one with every single case of coffee you order..

They (under their former name) called it the Freedom Clip. Not sure that's still what they call it.

https://money.cnn.com/2015/02/03/technology/freedom-clip-keurig-hack/index.html

[–] penquin@lemm.ee 3 points 10 months ago

Hug that person for me. Never tell people/the Internet what to do, they'll always do the opposite and win.

[–] MonkderZweite@feddit.ch 3 points 10 months ago

You mean the Apple thing.

[–] magnetosphere@kbin.social 23 points 10 months ago

The company told the court that it has "never hidden" that some repairs require the company's dealers.

“Everything’s cool because we told people ahead of time that we were fucking them!”

[–] MonsiuerPatEBrown@reddthat.com 17 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

This has been going on for more than a decade.

https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/threads/john-deere-wants-to-make-it-illegal-to-repair-your-own-tractor.336850/

https://theamericangenius.com/business-news/farmers-cant-legally-fix-their-own-john-deere-tractors-due-to-copyright-laws/

https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/08/17/432601480/diy-tractor-repair-runs-afoul-of-copyright-law

Copyright law. The same hill Obama decided Aaron Schwartz should die on to protect the profitability of private journals command over academia.

Neo-liberalism needs thrown into the "Nationalists Christians" pile.

[–] militaryintelligence@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago

It's creeped into the car market as well. Can't even clear codes on new Dodges

[–] Reverendender@sh.itjust.works 11 points 10 months ago

Nov 27 (Reuters) - A U.S. judge on Monday said Deere & Co (DE.N) must face claims from crop farms and farmers that the agricultural machinery maker has unlawfully conspired to restrict services for maintenance and repair.

U.S. District Judge Iain Johnston in Rockford, Illinois, rejected Deere's effort to dismiss consolidated lawsuits accusing the Moline, Illinois-based company of violating U.S. antitrust law.

The judge said the plaintiffs had met legal thresholds to pursue their claims.

"According to the complaint's allegations, Deere has the ultimate control of the repair services market," Johnston wrote in his 89-page order. "These allegations are not mere legal conclusions. The complaint is chock-full of factual allegations to support this conclusion."

Deere has denied the allegations and will have a chance at a later stage in the case to dispute the merits of the farmers' claims.

A Deere spokesperson and attorneys for the company at Jones Day on Monday did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

A lead plaintiffs' attorney in the case, Daniel Hedlund of law firm Gustafson Gluek in Minneapolis, said they "look forward to continuing to pursue the claims of their farmer clients in this right to repair antitrust case."

The case is part of a growing push from consumers and others challenging restrictions on maintenance and repair. A U.S. judge in California this month dismissed a right-to-repair case against Tesla but said drivers could refile an amended complaint.

The Biden administration broadly has backed a federal legislative effort to end restrictive repair practices, which critics argue raises costs for consumers.

In the Deere litigation, six prospective class actions were consolidated last year before Johnston. The cases allege Deere has conspired with dealerships to control where and how machines are maintained and repaired.

The complaint said farmers are "prevented from using trusted, less expensive, and more conveniently located skilled mechanics who are not affiliated with Deere."

Lawyers for Deere have argued that only a "small subset" of repairs must be done at Deere-authorized dealerships. The company told the court that it has "never hidden" that some repairs require the company's dealers.

In a filing, the lawyers said federal antitrust law does not require "Deere to give all of its proprietary repair tools and software to anyone who happens to want them."

The case is In re: Deere & Co Repair Service Antitrust Litigation, U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois, 3:22-cv-50188.

[–] penquin@lemm.ee 3 points 10 months ago

About time