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OpenAI investors' race to reinstate Sam Altman makes tech expert Gary Marcus feel 'sick to his stomach' (fortune.com)

submitted 11 months ago by AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world

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[–] sigmaklimgrindset@sopuli.xyz 97 points 11 months ago (2 children)

The allegations from his sister aside (not discrediting them, I’m just not well informed on that atm), it’s been really strange seeing so many comments cheering for Sam Altman and dunking on the openAI board (handpicked by Altman himself btw) for this whole farce. We have no info on what’s happening inside, just 3rd party hearsay and speculation.

Not only that, the guy who allegedly led Altman’s ousting, Ilya Sutskever, signed the employee resignation letter asking to reinstate Altman as CEO.

OpenAI chief scientist Ilya Sutskever, who reportedly led the push to remove Altman, noted on X (formerly Twitter) that he had some regrets about the weekend of chaos inside OpenAI. “I deeply regret my participation in the board’s actions. I never intended to harm OpenAI,” said Sutskever. “I love everything we’ve built together and I will do everything I can to reunite the company.”

And somehow Microsoft ends up the biggest winner out of this entire situation. I don’t consider myself conspiracy minded…but what the hell is going on here?

[–] AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world 56 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (7 children)

it’s been really strange seeing so many comments cheering for Sam Altman

It's the same with Elon's cult. People probably really believe that Sam is a genius and the one who made ChatGPT (just like Elon's fanboys really believe that he's involved with Tesla's engineering), so they see him, alongside Elon, as a symbol of meritocracy and they get angry at the board for ousting someone just because they're "afraid" of a "genius".

[–] HeartyBeast@kbin.social 36 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I was certainly a fan of early Elon. A serious push to address one of the causes of climate change, opening up some patents to allow other companies build charging networks, a disruptive can-do attitude that spurred Old Automobile to actually start innovating in response.

There were doubts, but I think the turning point for me was when he attacked the divers working to get the Thai kids out of the cave, just because they thought his submarine ideas sucked.

He’d been doubling down on being an arsehole increasingly since then. I absolutely would have considered buying a Tesla in the old days, now? Absolutely not.

[–] atrielienz@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

They innovated first. GM and BMW and so on put out electric cars in the 90's they just didn't market them well and the battery tech wasn't as good then meaning range was limited. Not to mention the lack of infrastructure for charging which I will admit that Tesla (not Elon) did push for and develop.

The Roadster was an ice breaker vehicle and I will fully admit that. Musk was involved but he wasn't the one who made those ~~fears~~ feats of battery engineering possible. He really does take credit for a lot of stuff just because he happened to be in the vicinity. I can understand being a Tesla fan. I can't really understand being an Elon Musk fan.

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

Yeah the Twitter nonsense has been such an absolute shitshow that it’s easy to forget he had in fact turned for the worse prior to it. I didn’t flag it at the time, consciously, but The Boring Company was another early signal. Rich guy is stuck in traffic, says: “screw this I’m digging tunnels, bitches!” And then they made and sold branded flamethrowers to raise seed money…? I mean WTF kind of college dorm antics are these?

He used to be so much more grounded, back in the days of talking about our carbon emissions as the dumbest experiment of all time, and how he started SpaceX to make our species interplanetary and better able to survive major disasters. I was all for that Elon. Then he had a kid with a musician and mashed his ass cheek into a keyboard to come up with a name. I think he’s deeply personally broken. I don’t know what hopes he had for his marriage and family or how badly that situation is fucked for him post-divorce but it seems like it could be pretty bad and fueling a lot of pain and malice not to mention likely substance abuse.

[–] slaacaa@lemmy.world 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

This is what I was thinking, my feed is now full of this guy. I knew him from Y combinator videos, smart guy and everything, but now terminally online stans will put him on their pedestal and simp for his AI genius - until of course all the shit he’s done reaches critical recognition, and the general sentiment will turn on him. Almost like we shouldn’t celebrate billionaire tech bros.

[–] ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 12 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I doubt over 2/3 (around 600) of the employees under Musk would sign a letter demanding that the board resign over their firing of Musk, though. Seems most of the employees actually liked Altman.

[–] AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

When you point out that figure, it's also important to provide more context and take into account the fact that Satya Nadella promised to hire every single OpenAI employee and not just Sam Altman, and the high likelihood that the board will not resign. It's not hard to imagine that for many, going to Microsoft and working in a for-profit environment with potentially higher bonuses (as they'd be more encouraged to seek much higher profits than under OpenAI) is a significant career upgrade (good for them, but the point here is to not let the headlines make you think that there's some warm & fuzzy "we love Sam" moment happening).

The OpenAI salaries are pretty low (https://archive.ph/jPbYR ) compared to what Microsoft offers (https://archive.ph/nonSV ), and as I said all of that doesn't include the potential bonuses that would result from those teams aggressively pursuing profit at Microsoft.

[–] Immersive_Matthew@sh.itjust.works 9 points 11 months ago

Agreed. I do not know Sam, but I do know smart people who push the boundary of tech and they are all heads down deep into whatever and have little time for talk. Talk is cheap.

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[–] dustyData@lemmy.world 42 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Mark my words, this was a hostile poaching operation by Microsoft. Like 65% convinced this was the case. We won't know until 10 years have passed and some dumb emails end up in discovery on some unrelated lawsuit.

[–] slaacaa@lemmy.world 40 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Sam wants to push for more & quicker profit with MS and VC backing, but board resists, constant conflicts
Sam aligns with MS, hatch a plan on how to gut OpenAI for its know-how, ppl, and tech, leaving the non-profit part bleeding out in the gutter
Sam & MS set a trap: Sam crosses some red lines, maybe taking commercial decisions without board approval. Potentially there was also some whispering in key ears (e.g, Ilya) by seemingly helpful advisors/VCs to push & pull at the same time on both sides
Board has enough after Sam doesn’t back down, fires him & other co-founder guy
MS and VCs go full attack to discredit board. After some info gathering, they realize they have been utterly fucked
Some chaos, quick decision of appointing/replacing ppl, trying to manage the fire, even talking to Sam (btw this might have been a fallback option for MS, that the board reinstates him with more control and guardrails, weakening the power of the non-profit)
Sam joins MS, masks are off
Employees on the sinking ship revolt, even Ilya realizes he was manipulated/fucked
OpenAI dead, key ppl join MS, tech and rest of the company bought for scraps. Non-profit part dead. Capitalist victory

Source: subjective interpretation/deduction based on the available info and my experience working as a management consultant for 10 years (dealing with lot of exec politics, though nothing this serious)

[–] Tygr@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago

Wow, that’s exactly my thoughts. Thanks for posting and taking the time.

[–] crystal@feddit.de 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

But then why wouldn't the board say exactly why Altman was removed?

[–] ChunkMcHorkle@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

"Least said, soonest mended," as the saying goes: if you want the cleanest break possible, say as little as possible. It's probably also why the board fired him via a virtual meeting after close of business on a Friday.

By stark contrast, both Altman and Brockman were on Twitter almost immediately thereafter, joined shortly by armies of supporters, making absolutely sure that everything happening over the weekend was as public as possible, almost play by play, and was also openly joined in the constant public commentary by the CEO of Microsoft, who became Altman's employer less than 48 hours later.

Note that I'm not saying it's wrong. But in regard to point #3 made above by @slaacaa@lemmy.world it all seems almost planned, especially when you throw in this tidbit from The Guardian:

Sam Altman ‘was working on new venture’ before sacking from OpenAI

Sam Altman, the recently sacked boss of OpenAI, the company behind the ChatGPT bot, was telling investors he planned to launch a new company before his shock departure, it was claimed.

No other info, but IF it's true AND Altman was openly talking about planning a competitive service, then it does lend credence to the thought that Altman wanted to go, and to leave in such a way that he got to take whoever he wanted with him, because that is the kind of shit that gets you fired from your own board.

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 30 points 11 months ago (2 children)

So, the board, with no financial gain, kicks him out and now investors want to fire the board. Money wins again.

[–] Assman@sh.itjust.works 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The board wants him back too. The whole thing is a clown show.

[–] ripcord@kbin.social 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

No, they rejected that.

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[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 17 points 11 months ago (1 children)

TL;DR: still don’t know anything. No one seems interested in saying wtf they’re doing.

[–] dingleberry@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 11 months ago

CEO/employees want money, non-profit board wants caution.

[–] Peanutbjelly@sopuli.xyz 6 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Gary marcus is the last person I would consider for a statement on the topic.

No offense intended, but Gary marcus is a hack and a joke. He is a very small step above the yud, and neither will contribute to the safety or development of this technology in any way.

[–] otter@lemmy.ca 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Don't know him, what did he do?

[–] Peanutbjelly@sopuli.xyz 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

marcus is a well known figure for being heavily critical of AI while also being comedically uninformed. much like the yud

i would like to have greater consideration for their opinions, but i find it difficult due to the often unfounded nature of their speculation. for marcus personally, i've seen him make arguments woefully out of touch with current information. this is why i describe him as being comedically uninformed.

wish the best for the guy, although i disagree with them both to the degree i find their reasoning childish and dangerous. the yud moreso.

and to the person assuming "yud" being racist for no reason, please get some help. he is an individual. i'm sure his harry potter fanfics are quality, and i mean no ill to the gentleman other than disagreeing strongly with his opinions on AI.

[–] fsmacolyte@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

what in particular shows that Gary Marcus is uniformed? I dislike him because he's dogmatic and petty but I haven't seen a specific thing he's been wrong about, but I'd love examples.

[–] Peanutbjelly@sopuli.xyz 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

hard to remember which videos specifically, because it was a comparison to things that were known when the video released. he's been around a good while. listening to marcus often leaves me confused and baffled. not really in the mood to marathon marcus videos for examples, so feel free to disregard my opinions. but i'm definitely not alone in finding humour in the fact

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[–] rastilin@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago

I remember Yudowski being a thing like a decade ago, and people were making fun of his "AI" research even then. It's scary to realize that not only did some people take him seriously, but those people are at the helm of AI companies and making decisions affecting tens of billions of investment capital. I think there was a quote by Kurt Vonnegut that "true horror is waking up one morning and realizing your high school class is running the country".

For the other poster lower down, I'd almost successfully forgotten about his Harry Potter fanfiction, people kept praising it so I actually read through a bit of it, it's painful reading. He also wrote a Superman fanfiction and that's even worse. I think they both say a lot about his internal mental state and his perception of other people though.

[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

This is the best summary I could come up with:

On Friday, OpenAI’s board shocked investors and employees alike by firing CEO Sam Altman.

Marcus wrote about the situation on his Substack, sharing an analysis written by Fortune’s Jeremy Kahn earlier in the day.

In OpenAI’s unusual structure, a board “with no financial interest was supposed to look out for humanity,” Marcus wrote.

When faced with the potential financial repercussions of Altman’s removal, “the nominally subordinate for-profit (both employees and investors) quickly set to work to push out the board and to undo its decisions,” Marcus wrote.

Altman had told investors that if he did return to OpenAI, he wanted a new board and governance structure, according to the Wall Street Journal.

“The tail thus appears to have wagged the dog—potentially imperiling the original mission, if there was any substance at all to the Board’s concerns,” wrote Marcus.

The original article contains 501 words, the summary contains 138 words. Saved 72%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

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