Well when you realize we treat school as glorified babysitting and not just education, part of the reason becomes more obvious. Parents work 40 hours so we need kids in school roughly that length of time. Especially when both parents have to work to afford to live.
We need to uplift a lot about the entire system for it to work.
Especially when both parents have to work to afford to live.
That's exactly the problem right there.
As someone who's direct family member manages a school schedule in the US, it's sports. Schools are not for academia anymore. Everyone wants little Timmy to grow up and be a famous American Football star and get that scholarship. You have to start school early enough that it ends early afternoon. Which then allows for after school sport practice which finishes around the time mommy and daddy finish their 9 to 5. Then the games are scheduled after that so the parents can come watch and spend money. The spend money is a big one as they are wasting millions on these arenas for sports while the science labs have textbooks with no spines left.
But then it's not so much sports. The real cause is it's childcare while parents work.
In my family member's district, that's not even a consideration. And weirdly many in the district have a shared overall employer and work starts at 5am to 7am for many of them. Leaving the other parent to drop off or making kids ride the bus solo.
The only thing dictating the schedule is sports. You get some parents that complain about everything. Meaning a fraction of a percent will complain about school starting too early, too late, on days it's too windy, on days the sun is too bright, whatever. Parents are super awful nowadays. But all that is noise. The only complaint en mass they get that isn't political/vaccine/FoxNews is sports related. Game started too late/early, not enough fields for all the kids to practice. The million dollar astroturf is bent the wrong way now, and needs maintenance IMMEDIATELY.
There was a high school building that got severely flood damaged in a hail storm. Parts of it are still boarded up and not fixed. But the $30m+ stadium they don't need is almost finished.
Yup. Spent high school in a relatively large city with dozens of high schools, had stadiums galore, and temp classrooms in porta-buildings that leaked all winter and sweltered in the spring and summer and most of the fall. No money to pay teachers aids, no COLA raises for educators, but somehow the football stadium screen got an upgrade regularly and shiny new jerseys and helmets for the sportos.
Sports in education is a cancer. (source: see NCAA.)
This is it, regarding Canada at least. I took a course called HIstory of Canadian Education, the education system in Canada was created because of rising hooliganism in cities, as rural couples moved into cities and took factory jobs, and left their children home to fend for themselves.
it's disgusting how we prioritize sports over education at the ostensibly education instutions
YUP. I went to a small middle of nowhere school that punched far above its weight in academic performance and well below its weight in sports. Sports budget was consistently enormous compared to everything else and then would have massive splurge years on fucking stadium lights. That shit will never ever remotely meet its value but its the agenda.
I don’t think this is the whole picture, it doesn’t explain why we have such similar school schedules in other countries where school sports aren’t so relevant
It's a bit depressing to me that we've known this for at least twenty years, and possibly more and it's still a problem.
A major concern has been busing. Even in normal times, districts use the same buses and drivers for students of all ages. They stagger start times to do that, with high schoolers arriving and leaving school earliest in the day. The idea is that they can handle being alone in the dark at a bus stop more readily than smaller children, and it also lets them get home first to help take care of younger siblings after school.
If high schools started as late as middle and elementary schools, that would likely mean strain on transportation resources. O'Connell said Nashville's limited mass transit compounds the problem.
"That is one of the biggest issues to resolve," he said.
This is basically it, school systems not wanting to buy the extra buses or hire the extra drivers they'd need.
Unfortunately I don't see this ever being solved without a major cultural/financial shift in the USA towards properly funding education. Too much financial pressure to have fewer buses and fewer drivers. If my high school and middle school had started at the same time as the elementary, that'd be like 14 new buses alone at $60k-$110k a pop, not including driver wages and the diesel for each one...and we had more than one high school and middle school in our district. So it'd be more like 50 new buses, just to start HS and middle school at the same time as elementary. The cost would eat smaller districts alive. It'd be several million just to procure the buses new.
It's baffling how many U.S problems can be traced back to car-oriented development.
Here in Sweden, dedicated school buses are uncommon - getting to school is usually a matter of walking when young, and then using the common public transportation when older, or biking, or a mix of those two.
Here's how I got to school while growing up:
Note that this was one of the most car-oriented cities in Sweden of about 100k people, meaning that this experience is probably unusually bad for Sweden.
When I was at school, the bus was a charter from the company that ran the local public bus fleet. Every other time it was running public routes or just part of that companies reserve.
But this was in the UK, where dedicated school buses are exceptional.
In the school district that I live in (and where my kids attend school), elementary school starts earliest and middle/high school both start at roughly the same time.
I've found that this works really well since my youngest wakes up and is ready to go earliest anyways, I don't have to adjust my schedule because they're out of the house before I have to get to work and I would need after school care regardless. My older kids can more or less fend for themselves before school so I don't need to worry about them while I get to work before they leave.
If elementary school started at 9 like high school and middle school I'd have to organize care for my youngest both before and after school since I'd be working at both times.
schools are largely daycare facilities for the low/middle income brackets.
Because school is entirely geared towards parents. Nothing about school is actually good for the people going through it, but the system doesn't actually care about them, and isn't designed to.
Nothing? I’d argue that learning mathematics is good for people going through school but then again I’m no expert in education.
It's not the concept, it's the execution.
There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with having a classroom of students being taught a curriculum. It’s effective even if it’s inefficient. The execution is lacking for sure, but to suggest that none of it is good for students is a little dramatic.
to get them used to being overworked amd underpaid ofcourse
They cite one reason, busses, for the issue? With no mention of sports? Bad reporting.
It should also say not every person has to be at their job at 9am plugging up the road for the same reason said teens are being dropped off by these parents.
I can tell you my personal hypothesis as to why it happens in universities:
It has always been about work. It lines up with most morning shifts because no one can afford childcare.
In my experience talking with school officials and reading between the lines of BS that get fed out by them, you get to take your pick because all are true.
Really all of them are actual reasons that they start so early despite overwhelming research that starting later in the morning would lead to better academic outcomes and better long-term information retention.
Schools in the USA are not about education. They are conditioning centers to "prepare" kids for abusive expectations in post graduation employment.
A major concern has been busing. Even in normal times, districts use the same buses and drivers for students of all ages. They stagger start times to do that, with high schoolers arriving and leaving school earliest in the day. The idea is that they can handle being alone in the dark at a bus stop more readily than smaller children, and it also lets them get home first to help take care of younger siblings after school.
If high schools started as late as middle and elementary schools, that would likely mean strain on transportation resources. O'Connell said Nashville's limited mass transit compounds the problem.
Are staggered start times common in America?
Every school district I've been in does this.
Very
I've only seen it the other way around, though. Elementary starts first around 7:30 am, middle school at 8 and high school 8:30.
Good God! 7.30!
9am start here for more or less everything, give or take 10 minutes (Ireland).
My preschooler is 9.30.
My oldest starts school at 7:35 and my youngest starts school at 9:20.
Because parents would then have to pay someone to babysit and then take their kids to school at the later time in addition to after school care. And why can't parents go to work later? Same reason companies aren't allowing work from home even though it's proven that the majority of people are more productive. The managers need to justify their existence, so they have to have their employees all there at the same time. And for some reason society has decided that morning people are somehow better than everyone else.
Because parents have to go to work, and teens with boyfriends/girlfriends don't know how to use condoms and can't get abortions in some states. Also, used car prices and insurance make teens driving to school on their own unaffordable.
Because kids need to be at school while parents work
Right, so they get home at 3pm, makes perfect sense
First it has to start early enough so parents can get kids off then get to work. Also, extra circular activities like sports and clubs, as well as parents wanting kids home when they are home.
I'm pretty sure it just boils down to hatred of young people. "I had to get up early so you do too."
Which is why I think we should amend the constitution to allow cruel and unusual punishments for people who utter the phrase "build a better world for our children."
Actual answer one heard that unfortunately makes sense: school sports after class. If you start classes later everything gets pushed back to obscene times.
Personally my high school started a half hour in grade 12. Just that made a world of difference.
that unfortunately makes sense: school sports after class
I disagree that it makes sense. Get the sports out of the school system entirely and have them be community-based or similar. I think that should apply that to most extracurriculars. I participated in sports, band, theatre, etc. so it's not like I just hated it (I would argue that art, band, choir, gym, etc. are still good to have in the curricula of schools, just not the traditionally after-school part).
It all goes back to the farmers. Farmers were up at the crack of dawn to use the light, so industry followed them. Now we're trapped in a circle, following the same schedule because we follow the same schedule.
Our regular middle schools start late. It can work. The reason they don't do it for high school where it is needed most is sports.
Just wondering friends in Canada and EU - when do your teens start the class day? I don't doubt this is yet another thing US education gets wrong but just wondering how better funded education systems are doing things.
The UK here. I think classes started for me just before 9 but the school would generally open a little after 8 so parents could drop their kids off.
It's worth mentioning we have a semi functioning public transport system so for all schools in urban areas, teenagers are expected to use that to get to school.
Out in the country school buses are still a thing though.
Easy. School isn't for school. It's a daycare with its hours offset from the working day, skewing early so parents can get their kids there before work. Kids spend 2 hours on a bus and 7 hours in a classroom every day because both of their parents have to work.
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