this post was submitted on 27 Oct 2023
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As Gazans Scrounge for Food and Water, Hamas Sits on a Rich Trove of Supplies (www.nytimes.com)
submitted 1 year ago by silence7@slrpnk.net to c/news@beehaw.org
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Key thing is that the shortages in Gaza are a direct result of Hamas deciding to stockpile food, water, and fuel, and munitions in order to kill, rather than making sure everybody has enough.

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[–] livus@kbin.social 44 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Yet with Gazans facing a humanitarian catastrophe, Hamas’s stockpiles raise questions about what responsibility, if any, it has to the civilian population.

I find statements like this pretty fatuous.

Ethically all humans have a responsibility to see that these civilians won't starve or lack medicine.

  • Hamas is hoarding it and won't share with civilians.

  • Israel is also refusing to share with the hapless civilians

  • it's trying to prevent the rest of the world from sharing either.

It's stupid to say I'm not allowed to give a homeless guy a hot meal because there's a rich guy nearby.

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Hamas is their government, and as such, has a responsibility to those it governs.

And the supplies are literally under the feet of the people who need them. Not something dependent on outside shipment.

Hamas made a decision to start a war, and now they're choosing to let people suffer for PR points instead of moving supplies up and out of their tunnels to the people.

[–] livus@kbin.social 33 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Eh, this is the kind of thing people say to absolve themselves.

"Sure that neighbour kid's getting starved and abused by his parents but it's his parents' responsibility to feed him, not mine".

"Sure, the Rohingya are getting genocided by the Junta but after all the Junta is technically their government who are responsible for their safety, not us".

Last time anyone voted in Hamas was 17 years ago. Meanwhile literally half the Gazans are aged 18 or younger. Far too younger to have voted for Hamas let alone for this nightmare.

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 17 points 1 year ago (3 children)

If you just send in food, Hamas will take the bulk of it, same way they supplied the tunnels in the first place. Only real way to solve the problem is to get rid of Hamas.

[–] ondoyant@beehaw.org 28 points 1 year ago

this is just not a well founded assumption. humanitarian aid was going into Gaza, and was being distributed to the people there before Israel cut off the supply. you're trying to engineer a false dichotomy, where the only solution to the ongoing humanitarian crisis caused in part by the denial of necessary resources is more denial of necessary resources. like, just think for like a moment. Hamas has a surplus of resources to supply their own forces. they aren't reliant on humanitarian aid. not allowing food and other resources to get into Gaza only negatively affects the civilian population, and does very little to harm the supposed actual target of this indiscriminate violence. like, even if nearly all of it was just taken by Hamas, the quantity that remained would almost certainly still help innocent people survive this conflict, and that's a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself.

but whatever, i bet you'll just move the goalpost again. we cannot act based on what Hamas "should" be doing if they were acting responsibly. Hamas isn't taking responsibility for the death and destruction being waged against the Palestinian people, they aren't providing the resources they have, they aren't distributing them to those who need them. and seeing that situation, we should act to prevent the suffering of these people who are not being served by the government that is supposed to represent them, instead of actively preventing aid from reaching into the region.

[–] livus@kbin.social 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So let us send even more. I'd rather civillians no longer starved. Even if it means bad actors take some too.

We saw the flaws with the aid sanctions against Ethiopia earlier this year. Some corrupt officials were re-routing some of the aid intended for the famine in Tigray. But when the UN and US halted all food aid in response, starvation deaths in Ethiopia rose.

I understand that Israel don't mind starving the civilian population of Gaza as collatoral damage in their war with Hamas, but I do mind. The fact remains that starvation of civilians during war is illegal under international law. And I support that law.

[–] jarfil@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago

Only real way to solve the problem is to get rid of Hamas.

Does that include evacuating all Israelis from Gaza, then mass murdering everyone left who could ever dream of joining Hamas?

Because it seems to be what Israel is aiming at, and there are some words for it, like "genocide".

[–] dumdum666@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You are searching morality in something, where there is none. This is urban warfare - WAR - and quite frankly - not letting Resources through Israeli border crossings - is nothing compared to things done in other wars. Especially as Egypt could deliver aid into Gaza from their border - But they chose not to.

[–] livus@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

@dumdum666 that's a hard disagree from me. I think you fundamentally misunderstand what ethics and morals are. Either you believe something or you don't.

If you come upon some people raping some kid in an alley that doesn't mean it's somehow okay for you stand there and just watch because "this is rape and quite frankly worse things were done in other rapes".

The argument "other people could have chosen to help and didn't, therefore it's fine for me to not help either" doesn't cut it.

If you, personally, think it's morally fine to starve civilians and children that's one thing - luckily many disagree which is why it's deemed a war crime.

But you should own your views on that. Don't try to argue that there's some special ☆magical place☆ where there's no such thing as right or wrong and ethics suddenly don't exist.

[–] dumdum666@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you come upon some people raping some kid in an alley that doesn't mean it's somehow okay for you stand there and just watch because "this is rape and quite frankly worse things were done in other rapes".

The argument "other people could have chosen to help and didn't, therefore it's fine for me to not help either" doesn't cut it.

All right, then take a plane to Egypt and start to personally deliver that aid, if you just can’t stand by as the moral and ethical pure person you are. No? Took your mouth too full? Maybe you are a Keyboard Warrior after all?

If you, personally, think it's morally fine to starve civilians and children that's one thing - luckily many disagree which is why it's deemed a war crime.

It is a war crime if it is actually done to starve the civilians, yes. And you love to throw around accusations, don’t you?

Why aren’t you fighting that the women and young children can flee - to Egypt or maybe even into Israel? That would actually be useful, don’t you think?

[–] livus@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@dumdum666

All right, then take a plane to Egypt

If you think physically being in a situation is a prerequisite for caring about it, I don't know where this conversation can go. You seem to be veering into personal attacks.

None of this is a valid criticism of my point. I think it might be time for us to stop, since we are clearly talking past one another.

[–] dumdum666@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The guy accusing me of condoning war crimes is now not happy that I called him a Keyboard Warrior.

You are right in one thing: there is no sense in keeping up the „discussion“

[–] jellyfish@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago

Everything you said is wrong. Egypt is trying to let aid through, Israel has repeatedly bombed the roads in each time they're fixed; preventing aid. Also, as you so aptly pointed out, it's war. The first thing a functioning country does in war is ration food so the soldiers can stay fed; even if it costs civilian lives. This has happened many times. That Israel is purposely starving civilians knowing full well it won't affect the soldiers, just for propaganda, is frankly evil.

[–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

they wouldn't have to scramble for food if Israel didn't cut off supplies, blockade, and bomb them relentlessly, Times.

[–] vikinghoarder@infosec.pub 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Might be a move to gather more fighters: "Need food for your family? Join the fight and they will be fed"

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Pretty cynical when Hamas and Islamic Jihad could release the hostages and surrender and end all the fighting instead of giving people a choice over how they die

[–] TripDawkins@lemmy.studio 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

end all the fighting

So, you're saying there was no problem prior to Oct. 7.

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Hamas has been a problem for a long time

[–] protist@mander.xyz 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And Netanyahu's government has purposefully been legitimizing Hamas and undermining the PLO"s authority for just as long. Netanyahu does not want peace, he wants terrorists in control of Palestinian territories so he can justify brutality and conflict.

This is a complex issue that goes back many decades, Israel blatantly is trying to convince the world that "Hamas = Palestinians = bad" and "Support for the Palestinian people = anti-Semitism," but the reality is Israel's hands, particularly under Netanyahu, are not clean of this

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 4 points 1 year ago

Netanyahu looks to lose the next Israeli election. Hamas doesn't bother holding them

[–] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 4 points 1 year ago

There's no hamas in west bank.

[–] sqgl@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

What stops Israel from doing a deal by offering to remove settlers from the West Bank?

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Mostly concern that it weakens their position militarily. Get a genuine willingness for peace from a posr-Hamas Palestinain government and some sort of land-for-peace becomes thinkable

[–] sqgl@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Do you mean weakens the Hamas position militarily? Or do you mean weakens the Israeli position militarily?

I understand WB is Fatah controlled who are more inclined towards a 2SS which is why Bibi supported Hamas (until it backfired on Oct 7).

I also read a Reddit comment about how taking land from settlers and returning it to Palestinians would make the border larger and Israel more vulnerable but I don't understand how that is so.

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Total return weakens Israel. Basically because it leaves the country as a fairly narrow strip that's easily cut apart in an attack.

Getting land in the west Bank returned means significant security concessions from whatever government is left. Last time this was tried it led to Hamas winning an election

[–] sqgl@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

Hamas won an election in the West Bank?

[–] sqgl@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

Doesn't explain taking over Palestinian houses in the West Bank.

[–] jarfil@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

Ideological groups usually put increasing their following, before the wellbeing of those who don't follow them.

[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 5 points 1 year ago

🤖 I'm a bot that provides automatic summaries for articles:

Click here to see the summaryHamas has hundreds of thousands of gallons of fuel for vehicles and rockets; caches of ammunition, explosives and materials to make more; and stockpiles of food, water and medicine, the officials said.

The Arab and Western officials who described Hamas’s supply situation all spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were disclosing information gleaned from human sources, communications intercepts and other streams of intelligence.

While the blockade has left Gaza’s roughly 2 million people scraping by with what little food and water they scrounge up, it does not yet appear to have begun to degrade Hamas’s ability to fight.

Israel has so far refused to allow any fuel to be delivered to Gaza, even as other aid begins to trickle in, leaving much of the enclave without electricity to power hospitals, desalinate or pump water, fire bakers’ ovens and run internet and cellphone services.

The United Nations, which handles the bulk of humanitarian relief work in Gaza, said on Thursday that it “has almost exhausted its fuel reserves and begun to significantly reduce its operations.”

Yocheved Lifshitz, 85, a freed hostage, said that while in captivity she ate the same single meal that Hamas fighters eat every day: pita bread with two kinds of cheese and cucumber.

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