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WHAT WILL A CASHLESS SOCIETY MEAN? (aeon.co)
submitted 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) by BodaciousMunchkin@links.hackliberty.org to c/privacyguides@lemmy.one
18 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

cross-posted from: https://links.hackliberty.org/post/2932106

Image Transcription:

WHAT WILL A CASHLESS SOCIETY MEAN?

THE PROS

CONVENIENCE — THERE WILL NO LONGER BE ANY NEED TO CARRY CASH AROUND

THE CONS

EVERY TRANSACTION YOU MAKE WILL BE TRACKED YOUR SPENDING HABITS CAN BE LINKED TO YOUR CARBON FOOTPRINT

YOU WILL ONLY BE PERMITTED TO SPEND ON THINGS THE GOVERNMENT APPROVES OF. THINGS THAT ARE DEEMED TO BE LUXURIES — MEAT, FUEL, TRAVEL — CAN BE RESTRICTED

YOUR MONEY CAN BE PROGRAMMED WITH AN EXPIRY DATE — IF YOU DON’T SPEND IT BY A CERTAIN DATE, YOU'LL LOSE IT

THERE WILL BE NO ‘BLACK’ ECONOMY. IT WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE TO AVOID TAX, BUT THEN YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GIVE POCKET MONEY TO CHILDREN OR GRANDCHILDREN AND NEITHER WILL YOU BE ABLE TO BORROW OR LEND MONEY TO FRIENDS WITHOUT THAT BEING TAXED BY THE GOVERNMENT

PARKING AND SPEEDING FINES WILL BE TAKEN AT SOURCE, WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF CHALLENGE AND POSSIBLY EVEN WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE

IF YOU PROTEST THE ACTIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT, YOUR MONEY CAN BE SWITCHED OFF. IF YOU THINK THAT’S UNLIKELY, IT’S ALREADY HAPPENED TO TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CANADIANS WHEN THEY PROTESTED AND IT ALSO HAPPENED TO A BRITISH JOURNALIST

A CASHLESS SOCIETY MEANS THE END OF HUMAN FREEDOM

IF YOU WANT THAT, DO NOTHING

IF YOU DON'T, THE FIRST THING YOU MUST DO IS RESPOND TO THE GOVERNMENT'S PROPOSAL ON DIGITAL ID, UPON WHICH A CASHLESS SOCIETY MUST BE BASED

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/draft-legislation-to-help-more-people-prove-their- identity-online/consultation-on-draft-legislation-to-support-identity-verificat

Image Credit: Brett Scott

top 18 comments
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[–] Butterbee@beehaw.org 16 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Ok.. but most of those negative points are perfectly doable even with cash.

"EVERY TRANSACTION YOU MAKE WILL BE TRACKED YOUR SPENDING HABITS CAN BE LINKED TO YOUR CARBON FOOTPRINT" True enough.

"YOU WILL ONLY BE PERMITTED TO SPEND ON THINGS THE GOVERNMENT APPROVES OF. THINGS THAT ARE DEEMED TO BE LUXURIES — MEAT, FUEL, TRAVEL — CAN BE RESTRICTED" This is already true. Things that the government deems illegal are.. not legal to buy? And luxuries are already taxed higher than necessities. This already exists as written.

"THERE WILL BE NO ‘BLACK’ ECONOMY. IT WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE TO AVOID TAX, BUT THEN YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GIVE POCKET MONEY TO CHILDREN OR GRANDCHILDREN AND NEITHER WILL YOU BE ABLE TO BORROW OR LEND MONEY TO FRIENDS WITHOUT THAT BEING TAXED BY THE GOVERNMENT" - Avoiding paying your taxes isn't the gotcha you think it is. This should be lumped in with the pros. And before anyone @'s me over the pocket money thing, at least in my country you don't need to declare stuff like this on your taxes. There's a threshold for income that below that it's a waste of EVERYONE's time to track. So things like allowances and pocket money between friends is just not affected.

"PARKING AND SPEEDING FINES WILL BE TAKEN AT SOURCE, WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF CHALLENGE AND POSSIBLY EVEN WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE" Why would they? Even in a cashless society it's still possible you simply do not have the cash in your account. They would still need to be able to charge you for it later. They would also still need to do due process for fines. If we are not doing due process in the legal system, we have big problems beyond if we are using cash or card.

"IF YOU PROTEST THE ACTIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT, YOUR MONEY CAN BE SWITCHED OFF. IF YOU THINK THAT’S UNLIKELY, IT’S ALREADY HAPPENED TO TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CANADIANS WHEN THEY PROTESTED AND IT ALSO HAPPENED TO A BRITISH JOURNALIST" - Is this about the Flu Trucks Clan? Well the way the Canadian gov't handled that was pretty shit. I'll give you that. But um. We still have cash in Canada. And if they can turn off your ability to spend in a cash society then this is at the worst a net zero. Neither better nor worse.

"A CASHLESS SOCIETY MEANS THE END OF HUMAN FREEDOM" What? The onus is on you to explain this one further.

The remainder of points highlighted are a call to action so I don't have anything to say on that. Protest digital ID if you want. ID is ID though. Even with paper ID it's still registered and tracked. And if they want to track our movements all they need to do is ask apple and google or buy the data from 3rd parties. It's easier than implementing all the scary stuff the OP mentioned. It's cheaper. And you don't need a warrant to buy data from a broker. Pretty much all the scare mongering here is actually in place already.

All that being said, I don't think moving to a totally cashless society would be good either. But these talking points aren't actually the end of the world that OP would like you to believe.

[–] ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org 5 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

"YOU WILL ONLY BE PERMITTED TO SPEND ON THINGS THE GOVERNMENT APPROVES OF. THINGS THAT ARE DEEMED TO BE LUXURIES — MEAT, FUEL, TRAVEL — CAN BE RESTRICTED" This is already true. Things that the government deems illegal are.. not legal to buy? And luxuries are already taxed higher than necessities. This already exists as written.

I don't think so. I think they want to say that the restrictions can (and will) become "personalized". You can't buy this because you are like that, this costs more for you, etc.

Things that the government deems illegal are.. not legal to buy?

you can still buy them. and when something is illegal, that unfortunately does not always mean that it's harmful or otherwise bad

And luxuries are already taxed higher than necessities

equally so for everyone

There's a threshold for income that below that it's a waste of EVERYONE's time to track. So things like allowances and pocket money between friends is just not affected.

it is a waste of time to track that because it's manual work for relatively little gains. without cash it will be automated and much easier to tax that too. whether they want it is another question, but it wouldn't be a waste of time anymore

"PARKING AND SPEEDING FINES WILL BE TAKEN AT SOURCE, WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF CHALLENGE AND POSSIBLY EVEN WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE" Why would they?

which part do you mean? you might not be able to challenge it if it turns out as a system like google or facebook, where there are no human support personnel to be contact you might not be able to know it happened if you are not notified, and you're just supposed to see it in a transaction history. maybe the writer was thinking about something else, though, because that's already the case with bank accounts.

IF YOU PROTEST THE ACTIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT, YOUR MONEY CAN BE SWITCHED OFF. IF YOU THINK THAT’S UNLIKELY, IT’S ALREADY HAPPENED TO TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CANADIANS WHEN THEY PROTESTED AND IT ALSO HAPPENED TO A BRITISH JOURNALIST" - Is this about the Flu Trucks Clan? Well the way the Canadian gov't handled that was pretty shit. I'll give you that. But um. We still have cash in Canada.

How fortunate. That doesn't look like to be the case for too long, though, and that's why we are in this comment sectioat

And if they can turn off your ability to spend in a cash society then this is at the worst a net zero.

how would they do that? in my understanding, they can't disable your (physical, to be clear) cash, because the notes are almost indistinguishable (almost because of the serial number, however nobody looks at that), and not programmable either

"A CASHLESS SOCIETY MEANS THE END OF HUMAN FREEDOM" What? The onus is on you to explain this one further.

  • by making you unable to use it for its intended purpose, and also - by surveiling you through electronic payments, which record when, where and how much did you pay to who and for what.

surveillance alters people's decisions, even of good persons who should have no reason for fear

And if they want to track our movements all they need to do is ask apple and google or buy the data from 3rd parties

that only worksif you don't do anytanything against it for yourself. honestly, this phrase sounds pretty defeatist, while that's not warranted.

And you don't need a warrant to buy data from a broker.

nobody needs a warrant for buying data

But these talking points aren't actually the end of the world that OP would like you to believe.

Technically china level surveillance isn't the end of the world either, neither were communist dictatorships in eastern Europe.

I wouldn't want to live in such a world, however

[–] Butterbee@beehaw.org 3 points 2 weeks ago

I think I didn't say the right thing when I wrote it isn't the end of the world. Because I agree that level of control and surveillance is BAD. I really meant to communicate that it isn't a future doomer scenario. It's the world we live in RIGHT NOW. And if you don't like that, it's not just cashless society that should concern you. It's not something we can prevent. It's something we have to undo.

[–] ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org 1 points 2 weeks ago

also, the quote in the post is not the real content, that is in the linked article

[–] viking@infosec.pub 6 points 2 weeks ago

That article is a wild mix of paranoia and conspiracy theories.

Never expected to read about burning witches, Kill Bill, covid, and government control in one setting.

I guess the author has some good intentions, but the way he presents his stuff makes him seen like a crazy person.

And most of the cons aren't inherently negative.

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 5 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Monero fixes this. They are incredibly afraid of it, and they have every right to be.

[–] LWD@lemm.ee 25 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

I wasn't going to make a generic comment about how cryptocurrency is only worth money to people if they can convince other people to also purchase the cryptocurrency...

... But then I looked at your post history, and it's like a week of pivoting conversations to be about Monero.

Edit: oh god it was worse than I thought

[–] ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org 4 points 2 weeks ago

It's (actually) funny being put that way, especially the last one. well they are active in the Monero community too, so there's that. maybe they're just hyped for it. I mean I was excited too for the first purchase I made with Monero, but yeah, this above might be another level

[–] ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org 9 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I love Monero, I really do, but we do still need something offline for resiliency. Monero is unusable without any of electricity and a coherent internet, and a device with you all the time you would need to pay.

Cash is basically analog Monero. We should preserve it to always remain an option.

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 2 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I agree, except for the part about cash, because cash is issued by the government, or central bank, and is therefore shit. Now, if you were talking about goldbacks or something, then I would completely agree with you.

[–] thesmokingman@programming.dev 5 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Wait, you want to use a private currency pegged to the value of gold which is pegged to government currency? That kinda sounds like government currency with extra steps.

So instead using something we sort of agree has some value we should instead reject the government while using utilities it controls and regulates to access the internet it controls and regulates to use a currency susceptible to a 51% attack that could easily be executed by not just one but many governments? That’s a really novel idea. Do you have plans to run fiber across the oceans paying for everything with Monero so we can break free of these oppressive regimes?

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

No, what I'm saying is that Monero would be the digital currency for sending across the world or wherever it needs to go and goldbacks would be what you traded in person for like a tip for your pizza or whatever. As far as all those systems, they control. Check out mesh networking.

[–] thesmokingman@programming.dev 6 points 2 weeks ago

Oh, so we run mesh networks across the ocean? Very interesting. I’m sure we’ll be able to just use a metal with fake value that has nothing to do with fiat currency to buy all the equipment we’d need to power all that. Is there a big Monero group out there with the coins to pay all those local installers? They’d probably need to define some standards for what a network would look like and how they connect and how the local installers how and who gets paid what and how the networks interact. Standards? Regulations? I’m sure there’s a word for some sort of governing body that does all that.

[–] ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

because cash is issued by the government, or central bank, and is therefore shit

sorry, I don't follow your conclusion. Except if you are afraid of price manipulation, which I understand, but that should equally affect your money stored at the bank too

my reasoning is that we already have it, and it's already widely accepted as a valuable, while it's basically untraceable and so private, and also cannot really be selectively revoked or marked "dirty" as it is with shitcoins (yeah, I called bitcoin a shitcoin)

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 2 points 2 weeks ago

Oh, I don't like money at a bank either. Because you're right, they can both be manipulated. The only difference there is that the money at the bank can be revoked at any time for any reason, because it's not actually yours. It's just an IOU that they conditionally can revoke where the cash is not. So I would take a Monero any day over a follar. Offer me a dollar or Monero, and I'll take the Monero.

[–] Tagger@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

How do I cross post a post?

[–] BodaciousMunchkin@links.hackliberty.org 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

There's an icon on the web interface, next to the star icon to save the post. It looks like a copy icon with two squares. I'm not sure how to do that on mobile, it may depend on the client you are using.

[–] Tagger@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

ah, yeah, probably.