this post was submitted on 03 Jul 2024
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Sorry if this is not the proper community for this question. Please let me know if I should post this question elsewhere.

So like, I'm not trying to be hyperbolic or jump on some conspiracy theory crap, but this seems like very troubling news to me. My entire life, I've been under the impression that no one is technically/officially above the law in the US, especially the president. I thought that was a hard consensus among Americans regardless of party. Now, SCOTUS just made the POTUS immune to criminal liability.

The president can personally violate any law without legal consequences. They also already have the ability to pardon anyone else for federal violations. The POTUS can literally threaten anyone now. They can assassinate anyone. They can order anyone to assassinate anyone, then pardon them. It may even grant complete immunity from state laws because if anyone tries to hold the POTUS accountable, then they can be assassinated too. This is some Putin-level dictator stuff.

I feel like this is unbelievable and acknowledge that I may be wayyy off. Am I misunderstanding something?? Do I need to calm down?

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[–] oxjox@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago

No. Because they specifically said this is not the case.

The President enjoys no immunity for his unofficial acts, and not everything the President does is official. The President is not above the law. But under our system of separated powers, the President may not be prosecuted for exercising his core constitutional powers, and he is entitled to at least presumptive immunity from prosecution for his official acts.

They're essentially protecting a president from flagrant lawsuits that could be brought for unfounded accusations. The constitution outlines a handful of constitutional duties (such as pardoning) which are by definition the law not prosecutable. There's a presumption of immunity for their official acts. Anything they do outside of official acts is not immune.

Nothing has really changed. It's only made it more clear how difficult the process is to indict a president. The Fourth section of Article II still exists.

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

So, let's say, not for the first time ever, a president orders an assassination and congress wants to hold them accountable for this action. It will need to be determined if this act was part of their official duties. The issue SCOTUS has presented is that it's very, very difficult for congress to obtain the motivation for such an act. Such a case would be dependent on the specific circumstances. I mean, if the president orders the assassination of a foreign leader, no one's going to, nor have the ever, question that. If they order the assassination of a congressional leader, don't imagine they're going to get away with that.

[–] grandkaiser@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Hey so there's some echo-chambery stuff going on in Lemmy right now, so I want to provide some clarification:

  1. The court decision did not create a new law. It provided clarity on laws already in place. Presidential immunity is not a new thing. It's a well established power. See: Clinton v. Jones (1997), United States v. Nixon (1974), United States v. Burr (1807), Nixon v. Fitzgerald (1982), Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer (1952)

  2. The court decision does not expand on the law either, it clarifies that:

The President has some immunity for official acts to allow them to perform their duties without undue interference. However, this immunity does not cover:

  • Unofficial acts or personal behavior.

  • Criminal acts, (to include assassination).

The decision reaffirms that the President can be held accountable for actions outside the scope of their official duties. It does not grant blanket immunity for all actions or allow the President to act as a dictator.

People who are giving opinions based on what they read on Lemmy instead of going and reading the supreme court opinion that is totally online and right here for you to reference are spreading misinformation and fear.

[–] PM_Your_Nudes_Please@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The decision reaffirms that the President can be held accountable for actions outside the scope of their official duties.

But notably, it does shield them from prosecution for crimes which are tangentially related to their official duties. For example, granting a presidential pardon is an official duty. Taking a bribe in exchange for that pardon would be a crime. But now the president is allowed to openly and blatantly take that bribe, because the bribe is tangential to their official duty, and they are therefore shielded from prosecution.

It does not grant blanket immunity for all actions or allow the President to act as a dictator.

Many experts disagree with the second half of your sentence, because ordering an assassination could easily be argued to be an official duty; After all, the POTUS is the commander in chief of the military. According to this ruling, ordering it illegally would be protected, because the illegality is tied to the official duty.

[–] grandkaiser@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

But notably, it does shield them from prosecution for crimes which are tangentially related to their official duties. For example, granting a presidential pardon is an official duty. Taking a bribe in exchange for that pardon would be a crime. But now the president is allowed to openly and blatantly take that bribe, because the bribe is tangential to their official duty, and they are therefore shielded from prosecution.

Not at all. While granting a pardon is an official duty, taking a bribe in exchange for a pardon is a criminal act. The decision does not shield the President from prosecution for such criminal conduct. Criminal acts are just as prosecutable as there were prior.

Excerpt from the ruling:

“As for a President’s unofficial acts, there is no immunity. The principles we set out in Clinton v. Jones confirm as much. When Paula Jones brought a civil lawsuit against then-President Bill Clinton for acts he allegedly committed prior to his Presidency, we rejected his argument that he enjoyed temporary immunity from the lawsuit while serving as President. 520 U. S., at 684. Although Presidential immunity is required for official actions to ensure that the President’s decision making is not distorted by the threat of future litigation stemming from those actions, that concern does not support immunity for unofficial conduct. Id., at 694, and n. 19.”

Unofficial conduct includes taking bribes.

Many experts disagree with the second half of your sentence, because ordering an assassination could easily be argued to be an official duty; After all, the POTUS is the commander in chief of the military. According to this ruling, ordering it illegally would be protected, because the illegality is tied to the official duty.

"Many experts" isn't someone I can talk with or argue against. They're just weasel words.

Ordering an assassination is illegal. It violates the fifth and fourteenth amendments to the constitution (as they deprive persons of "life, liberty, or property" without fair legal procedures and protections). as well as Executive Order 12333 in which assassination is explicitly deemed illegal.

[–] Akuden@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

A president can't claim immunity. The president has always had immunity for acts that the constitution provides the office.

The president has inferred immunity for powers shared with Congress.

The president enjoys no immunity for acts as a private citizen.

These are important distinctions.

You or I cannot bomb another country. The president can.

You or I cannot kill a maid. The president cannot.

Only acts used with the power of the office are immune. You can't use presidential authority to sexually harass your staff. That's against the law.

The ruling didn't change anything, nor was anything given. SCOTUS doesn't create the law. We don't have a magical genie godking president all of a sudden.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Isn't the point that SCOTUS could decide that killing a maid was within the responsibilities of office.

[–] Akuden@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

No. The president could not personally kill their maid.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The maid was cleaning the presidents office. This was clearly presidential. Business. SCOTUS rules not guilty.

Do you believe that scenario is totally impossible?

[–] Akuden@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yes, because it doesn't fall within the powers granted to the president via the constitution. He cannot sexually harass her. He cannot kill her. He cannot take bribes from her. So on and so forth.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What if SCOTUS decide he can do all those things?

[–] Akuden@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The Constitution bestows the power upon the presidential office onto the president. Not SCOTUS.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

SCOTUS decides the limit (if it exists) of that power.

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[–] Kaboom@reddthat.com 1 points 2 months ago

The rules remained the same as it has for 200 years. The president is PRESUMED immunity for OFFICIAL acts. UNOFFICIAL acts have no immunity. This means there are still two angles of attack. Firstly you can say it that even though it was official, it was still unlawful. And second, you can say it wasnt an official act at all.

[–] voracitude@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Nah man, this is very concerning. You don't need to calm down; I think everyone else is too fuckin calm about it.

What I want from anyone supporting this decision is a single example of a situation where the President would need to break the law in an official capacity. I want just one. I'll not get it, but I'm gonna keep demanding it.

[–] dojan@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The king of Sweden has a similar exemption from the law, but he also doesn’t hold any political power. I also don’t know how waterproof his status is if he did something heinous enough.

Trump already has done heinous stuff.

[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The king of Sweden doesn't control the most powerful military in the world.

[–] dojan@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

He doesn't control much of anything, actually!

[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yup! There's also the fact that kings usually tend to at least care about their country's welfare somewhat. Republicans don't give a shit about anything but money, power, and theocracy.

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[–] Chainweasel@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago

I've seen dozens of people, including myself, wondering why there's no one in the streets over this, it's a long weekend for a lot of people too.
Honestly, DC is a 10 hour drive for me. If I didn't think I'd be the lone idiot protesting I'd be on my way because I'm off until Monday.
But there's safety in numbers. One person in the street will get arrested and end up as a footnote in the local papers, a million people might make them notice.

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[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 1 points 2 months ago

I feel like if Trump wins the election, my trans ass is going to end up in a concentration camp. Kinda hope I die before that happens.

[–] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Disclaimer: someone calm me and op down.

I couldn't believe that every post wasn't about this ruling all day

No, you shouldn't calm down, this decision is absolutely cataclysmic for the US should a dangerous person be elected or the ruling not overturned.

I've been saying the states are okay despite all SCOTUS' stripping of civil rights and everything else wrong with that country because as long as there were checks and balances, voting had relevance.

With this ruling,I can't see that it will continue to.

A president can order their political opponents murdered.

They can order that all civil rights be suspended indefinitely.

They can order a suspension or abolition of term limits.

They can abolish voting altogether in a hundred different ways and nothing can be legally done to halt that president from continuing to abolish voting until it sticks.

If anyone does manage to legally stop the president, the president can kill them or cut off their fingers and remove their voice box.

Literally anything is now legal, fair game.

Biden has spoken out against that kind of power and he has it right now, so VOTE for BIDEN to buy yourselves some time.

Whoever comes after this term or the next likely won't have the same scruples.

This is far and away the most dangerous and harmful decision SCOTUS has ever made, which is saying a LOT.

It is the antithesis of the line in the Constitution explicitly stating that no elected official (like the president) has legal immunity.

The decision to grant an entire branch of the government absolute(it is absolute, anything can become "official") legal immunity could very rapidly destroy the country as it is and turn it into a true authoritarian state within a week.

It takes some time to write, print and sign the executive orders or I'd say a day.

I have to read up on it more because I haven't read or heard enough yet to convince me that this decision is not utterly catastrophic.

I'm shocked the dollar hasn't collapsed, any further international faith in US stability is misplaced.

Antiquated.

[–] andyburke@fedia.io 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Article II, Section 3 - the president must take care to execute the laws faithfully. No president meeting the requirements of the office could issue an illegal official order. If the president orders something illegal, it's necessarily against the oath of office and should not be considered official.

My feeling is that this ruling means any cases brought against the president would need to establish that an act was unofficial before criminal proceedings could proceed. Thay seems fine to me to adjudicate in each case.

[–] atomicorange@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunately I think you’re missing something here. The court ruled that the president has immunity. Like the kind of immunity diplomats get in foreign countries that enables them to run over people in their cars. Immunity as a concept only makes sense if the action performed is actually illegal. Nobody can be prosecuted for legal actions. The president is now unprosecutable for both legal AND illegal actions.

It’s a nonsensical and horrifying ruling. The fact that the president would be violating his oath of office doesn’t cancel out the immunity, it just makes the crime that much more disgusting, and the impossibility of justice that much more galling.

[–] andyburke@fedia.io 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Please back this up with some quotes from the ruling or something because this is not how I read it.

The reason the president is immune for official acts is to protect people like Obama who ordered extrajudicial killings of American citizens. That is a very grey offical act - these were US citizens in a war zone fighting for the other side. I may not fully agree that that should be protected, but I understand the reasoning around a president feeling free to act (legally) in the best interests of the nation without fear that their actions would lead to legal jeopardy after they leave office.

(To be clear: I would be ok with a trial to decide if Obama's actions were official, for instance. And if they were deemed not, then he could be tried for those assassinations. Also, to be clear: I am a progressive who would vote for Obama over Trump in a heartbeat.)

[–] atomicorange@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It’s all over the Syllabus section, but here’s a specific quote:

[–] andyburke@fedia.io 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Personally I am ok with courts not being able to deem something unofficial based on allegations rather than on a decision.

[–] atomicorange@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So how do they prosecute then? If the president commits a crime, let’s say he accepts a bribe for a pardon, you aren’t allowed to bring a prosecution unless a court deems the act unofficial. And the court isn’t permitted to find that the act was unofficial because the bribery is merely an allegation and hasn’t been proved. And you can’t prove the allegation because you can’t prosecute a president for official acts.

[–] andyburke@fedia.io 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

The trial court is supposed to determine if there is sufficient evidence such that is not a mere allegation?

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[–] KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

It makes me very uncomfy from a fundamental perspective. Ignoring the fact that it goes against the founding principles of the US.

It provides rather wide and sweeping immunity, and even presumed immunity.

Although to be clear, the immunity act does not cover any private acts of the president, so if they were to for example,personally murder someone, it shouldn't apply, even remotely.

Now to be clear, the likelihood that a government official uses this to kill people is incredibly small because otherwise the precedent that it would set would literally push us into civil war. Will trump do it ? Good question.

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[–] bashbeerbash@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

All this shit is literally straight out of the Putin playbook. Take control of the courts, take control of what is legal, take control of elections. Republicans were always too dumb and incompetent to be anything but pawns of a better organized evil.

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[–] Manmoth@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I don't know why people care. Obama dronestriked an American citizen and nothing happened. Snowden revealed that we are all under mass surveillance and nothing happened. Biden withheld funds from Ukraine to halt an investigation into his son and nothing happened. This ruling just reflects reality.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Biden withheld funds from Ukraine to halt an investigation into his son and nothing happened.

Bit of a refresher as it's so hard to keep all of the lies straight: Republicans claimed that an FBI informant said that Hunter Biden took a position on the board of Burisma, and the Bidens took a bribe, in return for Joe pressuring Ukraine to fire the government official investigating Burisma. Nobody can produce the evidence, and said government official wasn't investigating Burisma, after all.

Pres. Trump threatened to withhold funds from Ukraine unless Zelenskyy dug up kompromat on Trump's political opponents. He was impeached over it. So that happened.

[–] Manmoth@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You don't think this series of events is indicative of corruption?

The CIA also censored references to Shokins book on twitter.

Unrelated but the same people censored the Hunter Biden laptop story and called it Russian disinfo during peak election season. It turned out to be true. 🤔

[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That is indeed a series of events. Did they ever come up with any evidence linking them in a causal way?

[–] Manmoth@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Well is there any evidence?!

The title of the article is literally about the oversight committee demanding communication records as recently as last fall.

Biden is a uniparty member and for all of this smoke he was never properly investigated by the justice department at home or abroad. Every inquiry is some anemic posturing.

Special counsel David Weiss let Hunter Biden's most egregious financial crimes elapse past the statute of limitations -- convenient. Hunter was making millions overseas in Ukraine and moving it through Romania and China. He wasn't investigated for years until he ended up picking up a gun charge.

Why would an energy company in Ukraine pay Hunter Biden, a crack smoking drug addict, 50-80k a month if not for political access or a quid-pro-quo? Who is "the big guy" in Hunter Bidens email? Why were they trying to give him a plea deal that would absolve him of everything last July? If this were anyone that was not a member of the privileged class they wouldn't be able to move due to all the investigation instead you are labeled as crazy for thinking this is old fashioned political corruption.

Wikipedia dismisses it as a Russian disinfo conspiracy theory. Where have we heard that before? 🤔

It goes back to my original point these people are above the law.

[–] satanmat@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Actually I think it is far worse than you may…

They ruled that the president is immune from prosecution for official acts they would get to rule on what that means.
So if Biden does X; they could rule it not official; but if Trump were to do that same thing, I’ve no doubt they would rule the other way

[–] Akuden@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Says right in the ruling it's up to the trails court to determine what is official.

[–] Snowclone@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

The fact that Clarence Thomas has his name on this ruling really helps illustrate how easy and often cheap it is to simply buy rulings.

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[–] littlecolt@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yes, have you browsed Lemmy or the general internet the past few days??? How can you still be asking "is anyone else" at this point?

[–] Bgugi@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Because they want to make a successful post but don't actually have anything to add to the conversation.

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[–] zerog_bandit@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Can't Biden just have a reaper drone fire a hellfire missile at Trump? Or am I missing something?

[–] BackOnMyBS@lemmy.autism.place 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

He could but he wont. Trump would definitely do it tho.

[–] Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The whole Trump presidency was filled with Trump abusing vague powers because when it was written, they assumed that the president wasn't a asshole.

This new law plus Trump is a cluster fuck.

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