this post was submitted on 30 May 2024
916 points (90.2% liked)

Technology

55715 readers
5504 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Despite its name, the infrastructure used by the “cloud” accounts for more global greenhouse emissions than commercial flights. In 2018, for instance, the 5bn YouTube hits for the viral song Despacito used the same amount of energy it would take to heat 40,000 US homes annually.

Large language models such as ChatGPT are some of the most energy-guzzling technologies of all. Research suggests, for instance, that about 700,000 litres of water could have been used to cool the machines that trained ChatGPT-3 at Microsoft’s data facilities.

Additionally, as these companies aim to reduce their reliance on fossil fuels, they may opt to base their datacentres in regions with cheaper electricity, such as the southern US, potentially exacerbating water consumption issues in drier parts of the world.

Furthermore, while minerals such as lithium and cobalt are most commonly associated with batteries in the motor sector, they are also crucial for the batteries used in datacentres. The extraction process often involves significant water usage and can lead to pollution, undermining water security. The extraction of these minerals are also often linked to human rights violations and poor labour standards. Trying to achieve one climate goal of limiting our dependence on fossil fuels can compromise another goal, of ensuring everyone has a safe and accessible water supply.

Moreover, when significant energy resources are allocated to tech-related endeavours, it can lead to energy shortages for essential needs such as residential power supply. Recent data from the UK shows that the country’s outdated electricity network is holding back affordable housing projects.

In other words, policy needs to be designed not to pick sectors or technologies as “winners”, but to pick the willing by providing support that is conditional on companies moving in the right direction. Making disclosure of environmental practices and impacts a condition for government support could ensure greater transparency and accountability.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 0ptimal@lemmy.world 111 points 1 month ago (7 children)

There are layers of wrong and stupid to this article.

Despite its name, the infrastructure used by the “cloud” accounts for more global greenhouse emissions than commercial flights.

"The cloud" accounts for something like 80% of the internet across the entire planet. I'd be curious what 80% of transportation infrastructure would end being in comparison... no takers? We're only comparing to (some) flights instead of, I dunno, the vast bulk of our fossil fuel powered transport infra?

In 2018, for instance, the 5bn YouTube hits for the viral song Despacito used the same amount of energy it would take to heat 40,000 US homes annually.

Oh no, the most popular song in the world used the same amount of energy as 40k homes in the US. The US probably has something in the range of a hundred million homes. The efficiency of computing equipment increases by a sizable percentage every single year, with the odds being good the same data could be served at 1/20th the cost today. So why aren't we talking about, say, heat pumps for those homes? You know, since they're still using the same amount of energy they did in 2018?

...about 700,000 litres of water could have been used to cool the machines that trained ChatGPT-3... Additionally, as these companies aim to reduce their reliance on fossil fuels, they may opt to base their datacentres in regions with cheaper electricity, such as the southern US, potentially exacerbating water consumption issues...

What is this idiocy? You realize that a chip fab uses something to the tune of ten million gallons of water per day, right? Ten million. Per day. I'm not even looking at other industrial processes, which are almost undoubtedly worse (and recycle their water less than fabs) - but if you're going to whine about the environmental impact of tech, maybe have a look at the manufacturing side of it.

Furthermore, while minerals such as lithium and cobalt are most commonly associated with batteries in the motor sector, they are also crucial for the batteries used in datacentres. The extraction process often involves significant water usage and can lead to pollution, undermining water security. The extraction of these minerals are also often linked to human rights violations and poor labour standards.

Man, we're really grasping at straws here. More complaining about water usage, pollution, water security, labor standards, human rights violations... wait, were we talking about the costs of data centers or capitalism in general? Because I'm pretty sure these issues are endemic, across every industry, every country, maybe even our entire economic system. Something like a data center, which uses expensive equipment, likely has a lower impact of every single one of these measures than... I dunno... clothes? food? energy production? transport? Honestly guys, I'm struggling to think of an industry that has lower impact, help me out (genuine farm to table restaurants, maybe).

There are things to complain about in computing. Crypto is (at least for the time being) a ponzi scheme built on wasting energy, social media has negative developmental/social effects, etc. But the environmental impact of stuff like data centers... its just not a useful discussion, and it feels like a distraction from the real issues on this front.

In fact I'd go further and say its actively damaging to publish attack pieces like these. The last few years I didn't drive to the DMV to turn in my paperwork, I did it over the internet. I don't drive to work because I'm fully remote since the pandemic, cutting my gas/car usage by easily 90%. I don't drive to blockbuster to pick out videos the way I remember growing up. The sheer amount of physical stuff we used to do to transmit information has been and is gradually all being transitioned to the internet - and this is a good thing. The future doesn't have to be all bad, folks.

[–] Heliumfart@sh.itjust.works 46 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Thank you. The 700000 litres in particular pissed me off.. that's a 9 meter cube. Whoopdie doo

[–] SuperSpruce@lemmy.zip 28 points 1 month ago

For comparison, a single hydraulically fractured oil well uses over 100 times as much water.

[–] Spedwell@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The reason the article compares to commercial flights is your everyday reader knows planes' emissions are large. It's a reference point so people can weight the ecological tradeoff.

"I can emit this much by either (1) operating the global airline network, or (2) running cloud/LLMs." It's a good way to visualize the cost of cloud systems without just citing tons-of-CO2/yr.

Downplaying that by insisting we look at the transportation industry as a whole doesn't strike you as... a little silly? We know transport is expensive; It is moving tons of mass over hundreds of miles. The fact computer systems even get close is an indication of the sheer scale of energy being poured into them.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] paf0@lemmy.world 80 points 1 month ago (7 children)

Yes it does, and wait until you hear about literally every other industry.

[–] bolexforsoup@lemmy.blahaj.zone 108 points 1 month ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (64 children)
load more comments (64 replies)
[–] BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world 26 points 1 month ago

Guys guys! There's room for all of us to eat our fair share of natural resources and doom the planet together!

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 56 points 1 month ago (1 children)

What is this even? Batteries for UPS in a datacenter wouldn't be a patch on even a few days of production of EVs, water isn't being shipped from "drier parts of the world" to cool datacenters, and even if it were, it's not gone forever once it's used to cool server rooms.

Absolutely, AI and crypto are a blight on the energy usage of the world and that needs to be addressed, but things like above just detract from the real problem.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 31 points 1 month ago (5 children)

The water is because datacenters have been switching to evaporative cooling to save energy. It does save energy, but at the cost of water. It doesn't go away forever, but a lot of it does end up raining down on the ocean, and we can't use it again without desalination and using even more energy.

[–] everyone_said@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

That may all be true, but the amount of water used by these data centers is miniscule, and it seems odd to focus on it. The article cites Microsoft using 700,000 liters for ChatGPT. In comparison, a single fracking well in the same state might use 350,000,000 liters, and this water is much more contaminated. There are so many other, more substantive, issues with LLMs, why even bring water use up?

Edit: If evaporative cooling uses less energy it might even be reducing total industrial water use, considering just how much water is used in the energy industry.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 56 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Pass a carbon tax. Oh wait that would be too easy.

[–] Buttons@programming.dev 33 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (10 children)

It seems the people who are the most staunch defenders of capitalism and free markets are the most resistant to the capitalist and free market solution.

Clean air (or rather, air with normal levels of carbon) belongs to the public, and anyone who wants to take it away should pay the public.

load more comments (10 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
[–] MxM111@kbin.social 55 points 1 month ago (5 children)

This is horrible article. The only number given related to LLM is 700,000 liters of water used, which is honestly minuscule in impact on environment. And then there are speculations of “what if water used in aria where there is no water”. It is on the level of “if cats had wings, why don’t they fly”.

Everything we do in modern would consumes energy. Air conditioners, public transport, watching TV, getting food, making elections… exactly the same article (without numbers and with lots of hand waving) could have written. “What if we start having elections in Sahara? Think about all the scorpions we disturb!”

[–] tsonfeir@lemmy.world 27 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Yeah is sounds like some anti-AI person looked for a reason to be mad

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] GiveOver@feddit.uk 10 points 1 month ago

Straight up misleading. Mentioning AI in the headline and then sneakily switching to "the cloud" (i.e. most of the internet) when discussing figures. They say it uses a similar amount to commercial flights? Fine. Ground the flights, I'd rather have the internet a million times over.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 54 points 1 month ago (10 children)

So... Absolutely need to be aware of the impact of what we do in the tech sphere, but there's a few things in the article that give me pause:

Research suggests, for instance, that about 700,000 litres of water could have been used to cool the machines that trained ChatGPT-3 at Microsoft’s data facilities.

  1. "Could". More likely it was closed loop.
  2. Water isn't single use, so even if true how does this big number matter.

What matter is the electrical energy converted to heat. How much was it and where did that heat go?

Moreover, when significant energy resources are allocated to tech-related endeavours, it can lead to energy shortages for essential needs such as residential power supply. Recent data from the UK shows that the country’s outdated electricity network is holding back affordable housing projects.

Can you say non sequitur ?

The outdated network holding back housing is that it doesn't go to the right places with the capacity needed for the houses. Not that OpenAIUK is consuming so much that there's no power left. To use a simily, there's plenty of water but the pipes aren't in place.

This article is well intentioned FUD, but FUD none the less.

[–] 5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com 22 points 1 month ago (9 children)

700.000 litres also sounds like much more than 700 m³. The average German citizen consumed 129 litres per day or roughly 47 m³ annually. The water consumption of 15 people is less than most blocks.

Energy consumption might be a real problem, but I don't see how water consumption is that big of a problem or priority here.

[–] FaceDeer@fedia.io 10 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Liters are a great unit for making small things seem large. I've seen articles breathlessly talking about how "almost 2000 liters of oil was spilled!" When 2000 liters could fit in the back of a pickup truck.

Water "consumption" is also a pretty easy to abuse term since water isn't really consumed, it can be recycled endlessly. Whether some particular water use is problematic depends very much on the local demands on the water system, and that can be accounted for quite simply by market means - charge data centers money for their water usage and they'll naturally move to where there's plenty of cheap water.

load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments (8 replies)
load more comments (9 replies)
[–] uis@lemm.ee 46 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Large language models such as ChatGPT are some of the most energy-guzzling technologies of all. Research suggests, for instance, that about 700,000 litres of water could have been used to cool the machines that trained ChatGPT-3 at Microsoft’s data facilities.

This metric doesn't say anything.

[–] Mr_Dr_Oink@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Do you mean it's without context or comparison?

Im not being funny. I'm just stupid.

[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 26 points 1 month ago (4 children)

So it takes 700,000 litres of water to cool a machine eh? Think about a water cooled PC, now, is that water cooled PC hooked up to your sink and continuously draining water? Or did you fill it up one time and then at the end when you're done with it, dump the water back down the drain?

700,000 litres of water in a closed loop cooling system is not a problem in any way shape or form.

load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] QuadratureSurfer@lemmy.world 43 points 1 month ago (24 children)

This article may as well be trying to argue that we're wasting resources by using "cloud gaming" or even by gaming on your own, PC.

load more comments (24 replies)
[–] Red_October@lemmy.world 34 points 1 month ago (5 children)

But it's okay, because now we can get wrong answers faster than ever, and we've taken human creativity and joy out of art.

[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 month ago (2 children)

We can solve entire new classes of problems that we never could before.

Your problems are with capitalism and how we distribute our resources, not with advancements in automation.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] mlg@lemmy.world 30 points 1 month ago (17 children)

Dunno about Microsoft and AWS but AFAIK Google has been powering all their data centers with "renewables" for a very long time.

I'm pretty sure many of these data centers have dedicated power sources due to the high consumption, and opt for things like hydroelectric due to cost per watt.

And at least there's a serious end product delivered, unlike crypto mining which wastes trillions of hashes to make a secure transactional network.

load more comments (17 replies)
[–] suction@lemmy.world 29 points 1 month ago (13 children)

All that for glorified autocomplete

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] snooggums@midwest.social 28 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (15 children)

Despite its name, the infrastructure used by the “cloud” accounts for more global greenhouse emissions than commercial flights. In 2018, for instance, the 5bn YouTube hits for the viral song Despacito used the same amount of energy it would take to heat 40,000 US homes annually.

Mixing and matching abstract measurements doesn't work when comparing two things.

load more comments (15 replies)
[–] PanArab@lemm.ee 23 points 1 month ago (20 children)

AI -and cryptocurrencies- use massive amounts of energy and the only value they produce is wealth. We don't get correct, reliable and efficient results with AI, and we don't get a really useful currency but a speculatory asset with cryptocurrencies. We are speeding into a climate disaster out of pure greed.

load more comments (20 replies)
[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 22 points 1 month ago (2 children)
[–] kilgore_trout@feddit.it 28 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

It is a little scary. Machine learning / LLMs consumes insane amounts of power, and it's under everyone's eyes.

I was shocked a few months ago to learn that the Internet, including infrastructure and end-user devices, already consumed 30% of world energy production in 2018. We are not only digging our grave, but doing it ever faster.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 23 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (17 children)

The Sam Altman fans also say that AI would solve climate change in a jiffy. Problem is, we already have all the tech we need to solve it. We lack the political will to do it. AI might be able to improve our tech further, but if we lack the political will now, then AI's suggestions aren't going to fix it. Not unless we're willing to subsume our governmental structures to AI. Frankly, I do not trust Sam Altman or any other techbro to create an AI that I would want to be governed by.

What we end up with is that while AI might improve things, it almost certainly isn't worth the energy being dumped into it.

Edit: Yes, Sam Altman does actually believe this. That's clear from his public statements about climate change and AI. Please don't get into endless "he didn't say exactly those words" debates, because that's bullshit. He justifies massive AI energy usage by saying it will totally solve climate change. Totally.

[–] SlopppyEngineer@lemmy.world 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Frankly, I do not trust Sam Altman or any other techbro to create an AI that I would want to be governed by.

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."

~ Frank Herbert, Dune

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (16 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] ichbinjasokreativ@lemmy.world 19 points 1 month ago (15 children)

This is what pisses me off so much about the climate crisis. People tell me not to use my car, but then microsoft just randomly blow out 30% more co2 for AI

load more comments (15 replies)
[–] Fades@lemmy.world 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

if it's not crypto miners with GPUs it's AI, these narratives never really connect well with reality. /u/0ptimal wrote a great comment on this post: https://alexandrite.app/lemmy.world/comment/10355707

To no surprise, the other comments are full of laypeople that feel they understand the entire field they have never studied well enough to preach to others about just how useless and terrible it is, who also know nothing about the subject.

[–] 3volver@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago (14 children)

the infrastructure used by the “cloud” accounts for more global greenhouse emissions than commercial flights

This comparison is bad. Commercial flights don't use electricity, they use jet fuel, pumping fumes directly into the atmosphere. I don't see a single complaint about HOW electricity is produced. I just read about how there's too much solar power in California. A serious disconnect in the logic blaming AI for pollution when we should be blaming the way we produce electricity.

load more comments (14 replies)
[–] Rooskie91@discuss.online 12 points 1 month ago

Love how we went from "AI needs to be controlled so it doesn't turn everything into paperclips" to "QUICK, WE NEED TO TURN THE PLANET INTO PAPERCLIPS TO GET THIS AI TO WORK!!"

[–] aesthelete@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago (3 children)

But think about all of the good it's done. Crappy article mills would be set back months if we turned it off!

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›