this post was submitted on 02 May 2025
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The top US health department plans to require placebo testing for all vaccines in an effort to offer "straightforward" public health information, but experts say such testing could limit availability and raise ethical concerns.

In a statement first given to the Washington Post, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) said this week, "All new vaccines will undergo safety testing in placebo-controlled trials prior to licensure — a radical departure from past practices".

The agency did not provide details on which "new vaccines" would be included.

But officials have suggested that updated Covid-19 shots may be included, which vaccine experts say could slow down vaccine access.

Peter Lurie, a former official with the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), said "it's hard to tell exactly what is being proposed."

"But, broadly, if they mean that every modification to an existing vaccine would require a new placebo-controlled trial, they are treading in ethically dubious territory and likely to deny Americans life-saving vaccines at some point."

HHS has not offered details on the timing of the placebo plan or specify the vaccines involved.

An HHS spokesperson told the BBC in a statement that health secretary Robert F Kennedy Jr's goal of "radical transparency" means being "honest and straightforward about what we know — and what we don't know — about medical products, including vaccines".

The statement said none of the childhood vaccines recommended in the US - except the Covid shot - had undergone "inert placebo" testing, meaning "we know very little about the actual risk profiles of these products".

But public health experts say the statement is misleading, as childhood vaccinations, including ones for Hepatitis A and B, rotavirus, polio and the mumps, were all initially tested against a placebo. In fact, all new immunizations already go through the trials - a type of random testing where one test group receives the immunization, and the other gets a placebo, like a saline shot.

But newer versions of the shots may not go through the same process, because it is considered unethical to withhold a shot known to be safe from a particular group, and because the shot is only being tweaked in a minor way, vaccine experts said.

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[–] Strawberry@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 19 hours ago

What a terrible headline. Most people aren't gonna understand why that's unethical and harmful

[–] boughtmysoul@lemmy.world 30 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Reminder that the person in charge of health in the US:

-picked up a roadkilled bear, drove around with it, then dumped it in Central Park to make it look like a biker killed it

-decapitated a beached whale with a chainsaw, strapped it to his roof, then drove home while his children got rained on by whale juice

-forced friends to watch as he liquified mice and chicks in a blender to feed his raptors

[–] ABetterTomorrow@lemm.ee 22 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Already done on clinical trials. Read the reports, laws and guidelines for clinical trials.

[–] Stamau123@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago

I doubt he even can read any more, the worm got to that part

[–] floofloof@lemmy.ca 89 points 3 days ago (1 children)

RFK overrules all the actually qualified scientists who know how to do this stuff, to propose that some Americans be given a placebo to see whether the unvaccinated get sicker than those with a vaccine, even though there will be plenty of unvaccinated people to look at anyway.

[–] ReallyActuallyFrankenstein@lemmynsfw.com 34 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I'd say it's incredibly stupid, but with everything we know about RFK, the Occam's razor explanation is that the point has always been to limit vaccine availability.

This just supports that he's not even going to do it above-board, he's going to use bad faith pretexts to do it.

[–] 4am@lemm.ee 6 points 3 days ago

“We can’t release this vaccine for 30 years until we know that the placebos all got the disease and the vaccinated held resistance that whole time without producing any babies with autism”

[–] Archangel1313@lemm.ee 35 points 3 days ago (2 children)

So, he's going to intentionally allow people to be infected with a potentially deadly disease, without their knowledge?

[–] tomi000@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago

Not just without their knowledge, against their will.

[–] Canadian_anarchist@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Wouldn't be the first time in US History (ie: Tuskegee experiment)

[–] Archangel1313@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago

Which is exactly why they created the CDC and all of its regulatory practices. This clown wants to go back to that kind of barbarity, "in the name of science".

[–] Blackout@fedia.io 37 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Who could possibly know more about health than some person who never went to med school

[–] littlewonder@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

An increasing number of Americans, even Gen Z, according to studies I've read.

It's terrifying.

[–] bcgm3@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

No formal education in medicine, sure, but he's got a ton of experience using needles.

[–] meeeeetch@lemmy.world 8 points 3 days ago

A nepo baby, of course. They're famously really good at everything. That's why they're always getting hired to high up positions, right?

[–] drcabbage@lemmy.ml 22 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Jesus, I hope you can opt out of the trial. I want the real thing. I don't play dice with my life.

[–] turtlesareneat@discuss.online 10 points 3 days ago

As I learned at the doctor this week, you can ask to be tested for immunity to things, like measles. So you'd conceivably be able to tell afterwards but how long will insurance cover these diagnostics?

[–] _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I mean, most of trumps cronies are unvaxxed anyway, just use them for the trial.

[–] pleasegoaway@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago

Make no mistake. They are all fully vaxxed. They just pander to low-information votes.

[–] saltesc@lemmy.world 15 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Placebo?! 🤣

Apparently infections are all in your head.

[–] floofloof@lemmy.ca 10 points 3 days ago (1 children)

In RFK's case, this is largely true.

[–] Ledericas@lemm.ee 4 points 2 days ago

WORMS are in his head.

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 16 points 3 days ago (1 children)

That's a fantastic idea! We could take it a step further and study what happens to unvaccinated people, too!

[–] entwine413@lemm.ee 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

While I agree, a placebo trial does have validity vs just observing people who didn't take the drug.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 6 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Placebo is something to think about but has no place in a vaccine trial for an active contagion. People are injected and not told if its the vaccine or just saline. The placebo effect is minimal in anything non subjective. So with a painkiller yeah ok, but with a vaccine. Nope.

[–] iopq@lemmy.world -3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

That's absolutely not true. Placebo effect literally cures certain diseases

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Maybe if the disease is completely subjective, but give me an example of a disease that does actual cell damage.

[–] iopq@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/putting-the-placebo-effect-to-work

It caused people actual relief of IBS and Parkinson's

Parkinson's disease is associated with a shortage of a brain chemical called dopamine, and in studies of the disease, placebos have increased the production of dopamine.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It did not cure the disease thats pain relief.

[–] iopq@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Increasing the dopamine level in the brain is not pain relief, that's a physical change

It can actually cure high blood pressure (which can cause stroke and heart disease)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6118757/

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Increasing dopamine is totally pain relief. Its one way the body does it. Both blood pressure and dopamine levels can be effected by visualization and meditation. It is nothing like actually effecting a disease progression. I mean it could cause people to not feel as bad while having the disease but nothing in terms of fighting the actual disease.

[–] iopq@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Blood pressure is actually affecting your chances of dying from heart disease or stroke, so yes, it's changing the disease progression

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

So the key thing here with placebo is its a mental effect. It effects things you could otherwise effect with your mind. You can't kill viruses in this manner. Adding to this if you testing for a communicable disease the placebo group that is given something 100% inneffective in fighting the virus/microbe is problematic as it may lead to "risky" behavior. This is why generally you have the population you test on and you use the general population as the control group to compare against. I will give you that placebo in that circumstance might cause people to list symptoms as less severe but its just not worth it.

[–] iopq@lemmy.world 1 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

You can't kill viruses, but you can see if the side effects are nocebo or real. If the placebo group complains about the side effects are the same rate it means they are not statistically significant

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 1 points 6 hours ago

This is just not worth it when you have to be worried about infection in a populace. Again the placebo group may and likely will have more risk taking behavior. This was really the crux of my initial reply. Its not that there is 100% nothing you can get from it but the risk trade off is not worth it.

[–] bradorsomething@ttrpg.network 8 points 3 days ago

Placebos in red states sounds the most ethical choice here.

[–] Reverendender@sh.itjust.works 9 points 3 days ago (1 children)

"Sir, everyone who got the placebo shot died immediately!"

"Hmmmmmmm. Better run it again."

[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 days ago (1 children)

“But this time, the boss wants us to focus on sanctuary cities”

[–] TransplantedSconie@lemm.ee 2 points 3 days ago

"Also those camps where we concentrated a bunch of people!"

[–] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 6 points 3 days ago

That’s fine, if he declares before the trials what results he would actually find convincing.

[–] Freshparsnip@lemm.ee 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Will he be a test subject?

[–] painfulasterisk1@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 days ago

I don't think the worm will endure it.

[–] resipsaloquitur@lemm.ee 4 points 3 days ago

How ‘bout “no,” Bob?