this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2023

29 points (96.8% liked)

World News

22057 readers

141 users here now

Breaking news from around the world.

News that is American but has an international facet may also be posted here.

Guidelines for submissions:

Where possible, post the original source of information.
- If there is a paywall, you can use alternative sources or provide an archive.today, 12ft.io, etc. link in the body.
Do not editorialize titles. Preserve the original title when possible; edits for clarity are fine.
Do not post ragebait or shock stories. These will be removed.
Do not post tabloid or blogspam stories. These will be removed.
Social media should be a source of last resort.

These guidelines will be enforced on a know-it-when-I-see-it basis.

For US News, see the US News community.

This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.

founded 2 years ago

MODERATORS

Few Good Options as Israel Weighs a Ground Assault on the Gaza Strip (www.bloomberg.com)

submitted 1 year ago by Rapidcreek@reddthat.com to c/news@beehaw.org

51 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 50 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[+] raccoona_nongrata@beehaw.org 35 points 1 year ago (2 children)

[deleted]

[–] emma@beehaw.org 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Olmert was working on a plan to withdraw from West Bank next.

If militant Palestinian leadership were willing to live in peace with Israel there would be peace. They've refused so many opportunities to become their own independent state because it requires allowing Israel to also exist in peace.

[+] raccoona_nongrata@beehaw.org 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] emma@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

We've all seen what happens when Hamas breaches the border now. That's why the border and checkpoints are there.

Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn't an "empty political gesture". Far from it. So far from it.

It was met by violence. It was met by the rise of Hamas.

And now that Hamas have told you very clearly exactly who they are, believe them. I know you won't listen to Jews, so look at the utter barbarity and scale of the atrocities Hamas carried out. Look at that honestly and listen to what Hamas is telling all of us about who they are.

Can you do that and still maintain they should have free run of Israel? They slaughtered 260 kids at a music festival for peace. Their charter calls for the slaughter of Jews OUTSIDE of Israel as well as within. And you want Israel to give them open access so they can fulfill it?

[–] ram 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hamas isn't Palestine.

[–] emma@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It would be so lovely if it were possible to open up Gaza whilst still containing Hamas. Do you have a proposal for how to do that? Don't forget the containing Hamas part. You might not want to accept it but you've seen what Hamas will do if they have free access to Israel.

[–] ram 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And we've seen the over 500k Palestinians that have been killed by Israel since 2010 due to Israeli occupation. You may not want to accept it, but you're just justifying ethnic cleansing of a land this is very successfully being ethnically cleansed. And now the 2.4 million who remain are going to pay in blood for crimes they didn't commit. Is this what you want? Is this what you believe is deserved?

[–] emma@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it's 4,882.

Which of course is still 4,882 too many.

The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not "justifying ethnic cleansing" in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.

What I am trying to get through here is that Palestinian militants are complicit in and exploit these deaths because - until the barbaric rampage last Saturday - these deaths have the militants' most effective weapon against Israel. They provoke Israel, Israel responds, civilians die, militants continue. When they take a break from provoking, Israel stops too. This is consistent. It's observable over and over and over again, except it doesn't become news until Israel responds.

Hamas' provocation last weekend was so extreme the world sat up and noticed. Israel is responding. It's the same pattern. You've now seen it yourself. It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war; but if Israel lays down theirs, there will be no more Israel.

So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?

If you don't have an answer, don't fall back on your old IsraelBad tropes or attacks on me. Recognise that it is an impossible line for anyone to walk. Hamas, who very intentionally embed themselves in civilian centres for the precise reason that attacking them means killing civilians, cannot be contained without harming civilians. That's not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.

[–] ram 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.

My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this. The human toll for Palestine from 2008 through 2020 was 5,600 and 115,000 injured, while for Israel the death toll was 250 with 5,600 injured.^[https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/]

The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.

Israel has for years refused to honor their obligations to respect the human rights of Palestinians, including their right to freedom of movement through occupied territory and their right to enter and leave their own country.^[https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15] The Gaza strip is the world's largest open-air prison, due to Israel's blockade. It's one of the most densely populated areas of the world, low life expectency with a median age of 18 years, and abysmal living standards. There's a lack of access to education and medical treatment due to years of Israel bombing schools and hospitals. Israel has now cut off this nation from access to water, food, fuel and electricity, which due to aforementioned blockade, largely comes from Israel.^[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/what-is-gaza-strip-the-besieged-palestinian-enclave-under-israeli-assault]

It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war

History shows otherwise. Perhaps there will be no more soldiers on the ground, but Palestine will continue to be denied their basic human rights, freedom of movement, sovereignty, education, and medical access. This is known because it was true before Hamas existed, and it is the reason Hamas has the power they do.

So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?

There are no easy solutions. Palestinians have been fighting oppression by killing civilians. Israel has been countering by killing civilians and further worsening conditions in occupied territories, which in turn makes Palestinians fight the increased oppression by killing more civilians.

Now, Hamas managed to break through the border, and kill several hundred Israeli civilians and take hostage of several hundred more. These are also real lives that matter, and I'm not going to downplay that at all.

But we're currently on a path towards completely destroying every life that's held on in occupied Palestinian territory. The solutions Netanyahu's far-right government will come to is poised to be "The Final Solution". There will be diplomacy. I'm not sure there's even room for diplomacy. But there needs to be another way.

So tell me, if you're not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you're not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you're advocating for?

I'm not arguing that I have all the answers, I'm arguing that the answer the world's agreed upon is the wrong one.

That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.

If you're defending those committing ethnic cleansing in front of you, you are justifying and excusing those deaths. If not to justify, what purpose is there to defend? Why wouldn't you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?

load more comments (3 replies)

[+] raccoona_nongrata@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] emma@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

So you don't grasp WHY the blockades are in place then? How graphic do I need to get in explaining that they are there to reduce terrorist incursions into Israel and to reduce militants' missile capability. You have seen what militants do when they breach that border, and yet you want that border open?!?!?

Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn't an empty gesture. It was a unilateral move towards peace which was violently rejected by Gazans. That part of it doesn't fit your IsraelBad narrative but it's vital to understanding the full picture. You have the luxury of ignoring it. You will still be safe. Israelis don't have that luxury. Palestinian terrorists make sure they can't forget.

Do you honestly think Hamas and the other militant groups have no power in this at all? Ok, so maybe you aren't aware of how shitty Hamas is in running Gaza, how much aid money Hamas' leadership skims off for their own wealth, how they keep some Gazans in poverty so they can be exploited in anti-Israel PR, their whole cult of martyrdom and jihad.

But now you've seen how little Hamas cares for human lives. You cannot deny the immense ruthless barbarity of their actions Saturday. They will sacrifice Gazan lives too, because, until the slaughtering rampage last weekend, that is and always has been their most effective weapon against Israel. Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, they will sacrifice civilian Gazans, celebrate them as martyrs and keep on doing it.

How the eff do you counter that peacefully? Please tell me, cause I would love to know.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

"Withdrawal" can be really misleading, here, because it was very much not disengagement aka leaving Gaza alone: The moved the prison guards from inside the strip to the wall surrounding it and then closed the gate and enacted a blockade, for 16 years straight now. About 50% of Gazans are 18 or under, growing up under those conditions, 80% are reliant on humanitarian aid.

You can certainly make arguments that an arms blockade is warranted. But concrete? Starving the city of water? Yeah that's very much not leaving people alone.

[–] emma@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, it's pretty shitty inside Gaza for some people. (There are also luxury shopping malls and much wealth. Vloggers share that part of it on Arabic-language social media, quite different from the idea of universal poverty presented on European-language social media.)

Israel can't force the PA or Hamas to distribute aid money evenly. They can't force Hamas to run the Gazan economy better. Israel does not have all the power here.

Militants use the concrete to build underground bunkers for themselves and tunnels into Israel. If they didn't do that, there wouldn't be a restriction on the amount of concrete allowed in. Israel isn't limiting it to be cruel or pissy. Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.

When militants destroy infrastructure for bringing electricity, water and other supplies in, Israel rebuilds it. The siege is horrible. I do not deny that at all. But Hamas only listens to force. Signs of perceived weakness (including Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005) are taken as a signal to increase attacks, that the infidel opponent is weak and can be destroyed. Hamas is so emboldened by what they "achieved" Saturday, of how weak they made Israel, they're not going to stop until they are forced to. Why is this aspect of their militancy so hard for westerners to see?

Israel has to show itself as stronger than Hamas. Absorbing the losses without offensive reaction will lead to more and more and more death and violence. If only this weren't the case, but Israel has to deal with the reality of militant thinking. They don't have the luxury of internet sophistry like we do. I don't know how anyone could possibly handle this in terms Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, Iran et al will understand which also keeps civilian Gazans safe.

That, and it is an absolute tragedy, is part of how the militants work. They will sacrifice civilians, celebrate them as martyrs and exploit their deaths and suffering as part of their war to eradicate Israel and bring the entirety of the land - river to sea, not just Gaza, not just West Bank - under sharia law.

Their role in all of this MUST be understood.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.

Every restriction also breeds resentment and thus increases violence and terrorism.

There's one question I want to ask here, and it's not an easy one, and Israel will take a long time to come to a national consensus on it: Was it just money that Israel funnelled to Hamas to weaken the PLO, or also fighters?

Once you understand how you created that monster you'll also understand how to starve it. Minds can be changed, the mechanics of conflict and conflict resolution can't.

[–] emma@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Yep. It's a double edged sword. It sucks. Absolutely sucks.

It also feeds militant goals for war and chaos and hampers everyone's efforts towards peace. It's an impossible line for Israel to walk. But you all would rather blame Israel than the militants 🤦

Oh fucking hell. Anything to hang Arab militancy - which has existed since before Israel re-emerged as a modern state - on Israel, eh?

So PRECISELY how does Israel starve Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, and that long history of anti-Jewish militancy? Stop existing? Jump into the sea? That would do it, if the land were finally Judenrein 🙄. Gazans in general might be open to a real resolution to the conflict which accepts the existence of Israel as a Jewish state but their leadership isn't. How do we remove dictators like Hamas from power? They're not going to go of their own accord. Israel showing perceived weakness emboldens them. Israel taking steps to reduce terrorism is condemned. It's an impossible situation and Palestinian militancy thrives on it.

Don't give me meaningless platitudes that are nothing more than substance-free word play. Deal with the complexity of the reality.

load more comments (5 replies)

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You mean like the rampage and slaughter last weekend?

[–] dark_stang@beehaw.org 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not inevitable, you could stop apartheid.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You think that Israel should ignore that a thousand of their citizens were slaughtered?

[–] dark_stang@beehaw.org 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wonder what could have provoked an attack like. Perhaps decades of oppressive occupation. Constantly escalating violence isn't going to fix this. But Israel is the side that can choose to end it by ending apartheid. All the imprisoned can do to improve their situation is try to fight out of it.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is one of those justification posts. To which I always respond that there is no justification for the various atrocities committed by Hamas. To which you respond with something about Israeli oppression. To which I respond that it still doesn't justify the vile and nasty nature of Hamas action and if your moral compass says it does I feel sorry for you. Then I slowly get bored with your inane ideology. Good. So that's it.

[–] dingus@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 year ago

So you agree that both sides are doing terrible things and there are no good guys in this situation? Just innocents caught in the middle.

[–] Lmaydev@programming.dev 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They've killed almost 1000 in Gaza now. Are you suggesting hamas shouldn't ignore that? When does it end.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It is war. It ends when one side gives up or is destroyed.

[–] Lmaydev@programming.dev 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

Either side giving up will be genocide. Or destroyed, which is again genocide.

So essentially your idea of resolution is genocide.

load more comments (7 replies)

[–] ram 10 points 1 year ago

Both the Israeli government and Hamas are wrong and bad. The Israeli people and Palestinians are both indigenous to the land they share, and both have the right to live there. The median age of Palestine is under 20, the people many people in this thread are justifying the genocide of are majority children, because their parents have been killed by the Israel government in an apartheid state. The solution Netanyahu will take will be genocide of Palestinian people, when Hamas is to blame.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Gotta say that bringing up 300,000+ troops in 72 hours is very impressive.

[–] El_Dorado@beehaw.org 16 points 1 year ago

I guess they just have huge numbers available also due to the fact that almost all women and men are in the military service and hence reservists

[–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

not committing war crimes, apartheid, and genocide is a good option

[–] khalic@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So, they should accept the massacre and feel bad about themselves?

[–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

they shouldn't respond to an attack by killing innocent civilians also they've been brutally dehumanitizing and terrorising Palestinians in Gaza for years

[–] khalic@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The deliberate targeting of civilians is horrible. But it’s well documented that hamas uses people as meat shields, by using civilian buildings as ammo depots and rocket launching platforms. That’s, unfortunately, a fair target then…

[–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

gaza is literally a small territory surrounded by water and israel where do you think people would be that aren't targets for missles that level entire city blocks?

load more comments (1 replies)

[–] khalic@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Israel definitely could have avoided this, and not fuck up the whole situation so much, but it’s not a simple matter… and self defense is a simple matter… if someone shoots at you, you kill them. That’s what happens when you take a gun. If you massacre a bunch of civilians, then people are going to shoot at you and your accomplices with passion

load more comments (2 replies)

load more comments