Because it a a white elephant that allows governments to take longer to pivot to renewables allowing fossil fuel to continue for much longer than needed. It's playing out in Australia. Australia is never going nuclear. But it allows governments to waste time debating and considering. Even when every forecasting body that isn't tied to the nuclear lobby laughs them out of the room.
this post was submitted on 16 Nov 2024
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it to protect capitalism.
the swedish neoliberal government has defunded existing renewables like wind power and set into law that the government is not allowed to buy back the nuclear plants they are now funding with tax money for private enterprises. with the argument that renewable energy like solar, wind and water will break the economy because it runs in the negative with uncontrollable overproduction but nuclear power is a supply and demand resource based on fuel which will let the private owners maintain artificial scarcity to keep prices stable.
Neither the scientists working in the field, nor the public is laughing any longer. We want nuclear.
I don’t get it. Current nuclear power solutions take longer to set up, have an effectively permanently harmful byproduct, have the (relatively small) potential to catastrophically fail, almost always depend on an abundant supply of fresh water, and are really expensive to build, maintain and decommission.
If someone ever comes up with a functional fusion reactor, I could see the allure; in all other cases, a mix of wind, wave, geothermal, hydro and solar, alongside energy storage solutions, will continually outperform fission.
I suspect that the reason some countries like nuclear energy is that it also puts them in a position of nuclear power on the political stage.
In what universe do those other power generation methods even come close to nuclear power?
And the fissile material can be reprocessed after it’s been spent. Like 90% of the spent fuel can be reprocessed and reused, but the Carter administration banned nuclear waste recycling in the US for fears it would hasten nuclear proliferation.
Wind, hydro, solar, and geothermal are all great. Anything is better than coal or gas power generation. But to say these green power generation methods come close to nuclear… not a chance.
I can set up 20 GW of solar panels to match the capacity of a 4 GW nuclear power plant. And I can set up 20 GW of PV in a year. China installs about 30 GW of solar capacity in a quarter.
It takes about 8-10 years to build a nuclear power plant. In 8 years, I could have installed the equivalent of 8 nuclear power plants using Solar PV that it would take me to build one nuclear power plant.
You can theoretically. Unfortunately, you are not considering the land difference.
More to the point, the absolute political nightmare of buying and getting permission to use so much land.
It is a nightmare for both. But rare to see the amount of land needed for the power station, have to argue about arable use. Whereas, it's pretty hard in the UK to locate the solar without others claiming land is lost. Farm land mainly as that is the cheap build option. (pricy land, lower labour).
But even brownfield land. Once you have the area to host something like this. You are usually talking about close to populated areas. And just about every NIMBY crap excuse is thrown up about history or other potential use. Meaning, at best you end up with some huge project that takes decades. With a vague plan to add solar generation to the roof.
Honestly I agree. It should be fucking easy to build these plants. Farming should be updating. And honestly can benefit from well-designed solar if both parties are willing to invest and research.
But we have been seeing these arguments for the last 20 years. And people are arseholes, mostly.
And this is all before you consider the need for storage. Again solvable with hydro etc. Theoretically easy. But more land and way way more politics and time. If hydro the cost goes insane. And the type of land become more politically complex. If battery, you instantly get the comparison of mining and transport costs. So again more insane politics.
Right. The UK it will be a challenge for sure. Any western democracy that's stuck due to the nature of its governance system indeed. BRICS countries OTOH are some of the fastest installers of solar. Maybe we're looking at a mean regression for the west.
Yep.
Also while the UK governance structure is crap.
Other EU nations have some of the same issues. (As has briccs nations in the past)
This is more about corperation power. Capatalims control over government is everywhere. But fully embedded in the west.
That's a lot of text, and yet, solving all of that is easier, faster and less expensive than nuclear.
Solving politics is cheap and fast.
Utter crap. Solar power companies have been trying for 20 years.
Its not like you came up with a new idea.
AI post? The reply doesn't even make sense.
Only fails to make sense. If you failed to read any significant portion of the said wall of text.
It was a wall because It was detailed in the history of solar power. Ill ELI5 for you.
We have funded solar power for decades. By allowing the industry to charge equal to other fuels. Meaning, for 20 years or more, companies have been trying to build solar plants all over the nation. And those that got there made a fucking fortune. Until the Tories ended part of it nearly 14 years ago. They stopped the subsidies. But still paid the same rate as more expensive power.
The problem with building solar is the politics from farmers and local communities. As the text described.
So
Solving politics is cheap and fast.
Utter crap. Solar power companies have been trying for 20 years.
Its not like you came up with a new idea.
Of building solar over nuclear. We have been trying for decades.
Then get to work.
I've considered it, some renewables installation jobs I've seen are extremely well paid.
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Those 800 wind turbines can be built in a month. Building a nuclear plant takes decades. And nuclear fuel reprocessing had never been economical by a long shot. Your pipe dreams will always regain just that and that's before we even start talking about proliferation and nuclear waste.
Building a nuclear plant takes decades.
In China they do it in 6 years...
https://www.statista.com/statistics/712841/median-construction-time-for-reactors-since-1981/
And in those 6 years, you could have built over 6x that capacity in renewables, easy.
You can also built more than 1 reactor at the same time
The same can be said of any power source?
Sure, but the other commenter conveniently forgot that that's the case for nuclear as well
You could, but with that colossal amount of resources you could have built 12x in renewables, probably more because of economy of scale.
And if you decide to commit all those resources to renewables, you probably just created a booming local industry of well paying jobs.
But then you still haven't solved any of the issues with renewables (at least solar and wind); The amount of space they take up, their inconsistent power output and power grids which haven't been designed for them.
It saddens me that we're here dealing with a push for obsolete, untenable solutions, and all the while, China keeps solving your "impossible issues" on the daily:
That's what happens when not everything is privatised and only made for direct profit, I suppose
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The performance of nuclear power must be calculated in relation to its cost and risk. And here renewable energy is more than competitive.
This is a much more reasonable argument than most.
But third and fourth-gen nuclear are excellent sources of constant energy that don't require storage, and some of which have a tiny percentage of the waste stream of prior generations, and what waste they do produce is problematic along the lines of 400 years (as opposed to 27,000 years).
Third and fourth gen can also use the waste that's currently being warehoused as well. So they'll be reducing environmental impact that's caused by the current waste stream.
Good point.
That is the point. 30 years ago going nuclear was extremely viable. Now it is a distraction.
Nuclear takes 10 years to build. Renewables are extremely cheap and work directly.
By pretending to advocate for nuclear energy the fossil fuel industry can keep selling their trash for another 10 years. When the plants are almost done they will start fearmongering against nuclear to cancel the plants.
certainly not saying you’re wrong, but the base load problem is still a problem afaik… storage solves some of it, but i think storage isn’t a full solution - we’d still need some other 24/7 generation capacity
Agreed; and it will become more of a problem as water becomes less predictable. Problem is, for most atomic generators, that also holds true.
Investment in research is definitely needed, but building existing systems isn’t going to solve the issues either.
Thorium Salt reactors can recycle their water source and also use water from waste treatment or even sea water as they're not high pressure water reactors.
When you don't need the result of power generation to be fissionable material for warheads there are a lot more options available to you, such as using the waste from older reactors to generate energy and output much less reactive material.
Nuclear missiles are an albatross around the neck of nuclear power.
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There's a good youtube video from Sabine Hossenfelder that covers the benefits of nuclear. Definitely worth the watch.
That would be one of the only good videos from Sabine, unless she's deleted all of her political and medical content.
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Solar and wind are just too cheap to build, they are going to take over no matter what anyone does. And in areas with fossil fuels still in heavy usage, short-term putting all the money into building solar makes complete sense - every new solar panel means that much less fossil fuel burned. We still have lots and lots of low-hanging fruit.
With renewables will come battery storage to handle the unpredictability, on the short term, battery projects are going to be super profitable so there will be lots of them. But those profitable battery projects will only handle the easy problems - grid stabilization and a typical overnight cycle. It will leave the grid vulnerable to that freak 2-week long cold snap every 6 years (that may be more common as the climate goes insane and unpredictable)
I'm a big fan of nuclear, but at the current cost difference to solar and wind, it doesn't have a chance. The role I see for nuclear is to reduce the amount of battery storage needed. If the cost to build nuclear with newer, smaller, more cookie-cutter reactors can come down to replace the cost of batteries long term (as they have to be cycled out after a decade or two) then it will slot in really nicely.
Nuclear power should be adopted more
But does the US have enough nuclear fuel?
Or is it gonna have to be bought from Russia still?
Nuclear fuel is 97% renewable, so we already have enough spent fuel to last us several more decades at current capacity, if we got serious about nuclear.
Plenty of countries in the world with uranium deposits that they are denied the right to make use of. Some of them export uranium but barely have electricity.
That's right.
Good, about time we look towards actual technological advancement
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