Hundreds and hundreds of years.
this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2024
197 points (96.2% liked)
No Stupid Questions
35694 readers
1021 users here now
No such thing. Ask away!
!nostupidquestions is a community dedicated to being helpful and answering each others' questions on various topics.
The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:
Rules (interactive)
Rule 1- All posts must be legitimate questions. All post titles must include a question.
All posts must be legitimate questions, and all post titles must include a question. Questions that are joke or trolling questions, memes, song lyrics as title, etc. are not allowed here. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.
Rule 2- Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.
Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.
Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.
Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.
Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.
That's it.
Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.
Questions which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.
Rule 6- Regarding META posts and joke questions.
Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-question posts using the [META] tag on your post title.
On fridays, you are allowed to post meme and troll questions, on the condition that it's in text format only, and conforms with our other rules. These posts MUST include the [NSQ Friday] tag in their title.
If you post a serious question on friday and are looking only for legitimate answers, then please include the [Serious] tag on your post. Irrelevant replies will then be removed by moderators.
Rule 7- You can't intentionally annoy, mock, or harass other members.
If you intentionally annoy, mock, harass, or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.
Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.
Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.
Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.
Let everyone have their own content.
Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.
Credits
Our breathtaking icon was bestowed upon us by @Cevilia!
The greatest banner of all time: by @TheOneWithTheHair!
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Appropriate username
We found out about it because those people are still alive. The Catholic church has been at this for centuries
load more comments
(1 replies)
Thousand plus years.
I don't know exactly when sneaky catholic scribes changed up the wording to make being gay bad except when they're being gay with children. But it's definitely their doing.
Catholics did not write the scripture that says being gay is bad; that’s from the Torah - the Old Testament. Christianity came after Judaism and believes in both the old and new testaments.
You could look up the exact text for it easily. It’s basically “he who lies with a man as with a woman…” and something about him being an abomination and should be put to death or something like that.
Pretty sure there isn't a single Catholic among them that would tell you such actions weren't sinning...
Totally. You think they parade around at NAMBLA marches or something?
They would if they were honest.
But don't worry. Catholics don't have a monopoly on child abuse. Evangelical youth pastors are gunning for the crown. (They'll never get close. But they're trying)
load more comments
(1 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
The last decade?!
This is going on forever and people are coming forward from the moment it was possible to do so. Unfortunately it wasn’t possible for a long time.
Watch The Keepers on Netflix.
It starts out as an investigation in a cold case murder of a Catholic nun in 1969 and unearths atrocities in multitude. It shows clearly how they silenced everyone who dared to question or speak out about abuse in the church.
Give people power, and they will seek transgression as proof of that power. What's the point of being supreme earthly authority over people if you have to just sit there and follow the rules? Rules are for little people, are you calling me a little person? Watch me prove my status by committing abominations and not getting punished!
This is especially the case when you load up the stakes with anxieties and resentments and jockeying for power with others and cognitive dissonance and all that jazz. Now they don't just want to prove their made-man status, they need to. And that's not even including malignant narcissism in the mix.
And the thing is, there's a whole category of people who are legitimately impressed by this, who see rule-following as a hallmark of losers, and rule-flouting as a hallmark of winners.
See also: trump voters, cart narcs, anti-maskers, karens etc etc.
The priesthood is an absolute magnet for these kinds of people - and also a magnet for people struggling with shame, hoping to overcome it by being all holy-like, for instance, existing pedophiles.
And on top of that, corrupt power structures like this very often have a culture of mutually-assured destruction: people end up required to do something horribly incriminating themselves so they can't blow the whistle on others - and once they start down that road, the justifications start piling up. See also David Cameron and the pig, and police in general.
Layer on a teaching that the reputation of the organisation must be protected even at the cost of people's own children, and yeah, perfect storm.
No way in hell has this only been happening for the last few decades; it's only in that timeframe that the church's power has diminished enough for word to get out.
Interesting theory, but can you back it up with any credible evidence? Because amongst priests, approx 4% appears to commit child abuse. This compares to 5-7% for public school teachers for example (source: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/201808/separating-facts-about-clergy-abuse-fiction). It seems the priesthood doesn't really attract more pedophiles than other jobs do (surveys suggest approx. 5% of the population is a pedophile).
Perhaps their offense rate is higher given the opportunities they have, but I can't quickly find good statistics on that.
The issue is the coverups and deliberate efforts of the organisation to protect the people doing it and keep them in business.
5% of the general populace with the tendency isn't nearly the same kind of problem as 5% of a group that has extended access to children, the power to blackmail both the victims and the parents, and the knowledge that they'll get safely moved on to pastures greener if their stomping ground starts getting risky.
Weird guy on the corner is a risk.
Person you're forced to spend entire days with unsupervised, and who claims the ability to have your entire family tortured forever if there's any trouble, and has an entire global organisation watching his back, rather a lot more of one.
How about scout leaders, church youth group leaders, etc.?
There's a possible self-selection.
Everything in life is about sex. Except sex, that is about power.
Religion isn't about a better afterlife, it is about power and control. Those high ranking priests don't believe in god otherwise they wouldn't sin.
They want to fuck kids and so they build structures around that.
So how long? Since its inception.
The sexual abuse of young boys has been going on for a very, very long time but for most of that time, the church and all its institutions were unassailable and infallible. So most of it went unreported at the time. The attitude that the church and by extension, the priest could do no wrong was especially prevalent here where I grew up. Which is why some truly horrible things were allowed to happen. The church committed some vile acts and they weren't all sexual abuse and enjoyed the protection of the government all the while. Here have some fun reading.
I can only speak for my lifetime and that of my parents, but in my country the church has been revealed to be a child trafficking, child abusing, money laundering, woman enslaving organisation. It has a veneer of pseudo-wholesomeness.
It’s important to recognise that while people rightly expose the church for this, they usually operate with the assistance of the local communities. In Ireland people in the community would report woman who were “impure” in some way, which the church could justify for enslaving them and selling their children if those women gave birth. This is all within the last several decades and I’m sure even before then.
That's not just your country. That's organized religion in every country.
I think that’s generally accepted. I wanted to qualify what I’m saying a bit more by mentioning the lived experience here and the complicity of wider society.
There's a Robert De Niro, Kevin Bacon, Brad Pitt movie from 1996 called Sleepers that is partly about sexual abuse of boys by catholic priests. The fact that such a movie actually had an audience back then tells you that this has been going on for a long time.
The movie is based on a book where the author has claimed that it is a true story from his childhood.
Also, Rational Wiki has an article on th specific topic you're asking about https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Church
Oh boy.
You're gonna want to Google Sinead O'Connor and where her career went.
The best explanation i've seen is this:
Places that put children under the authority of adults (schools, camps, etc) are appealing for child predators; but where most will kick them out when/if found, the Catholic Church makes it easier for them to stay in.
This is because of a religious belief that God judges men for their sins, eventually rehabilitates them, and the job of mere mortals is to forgive and forget.
I really like this explanation because it doesn't flatter my atheist sentiment and provides a very neat and rational cause-and-effect relation, it's a thing that's specific about the Church compared to other institutions.
Priests also take a vow of chastity, in people's minds they're supposed to be above sexual desire; and they have an extra aura of authority compared to the average teacher or summer camp instructor. Both of these things makes it harder for children and parents to question them.
And once they do question them, the Church gets a similar behavior to other institutions where they'll try to protect their reputation by burying the case. I'm not sure which positions are supposed to be held for life, i assume most of them, and so that makes firing someone (or whatever the right word is in this context) a bigger deal.
Thems my attempted explanations
Priests also take a vow of chastity, in people’s minds they’re supposed to be above sexual desire; and they have an extra aura of authority compared to the average teacher or summer camp instructor. Both of these things makes it harder for children and parents to question them.
I would imagine that the vow of chastity thing also attracts some paedophiles trying to fight it. Some of them will then inevitably give in to the temptation if an opportunity arises.
BTW, it is not just the catholic church having those issues. This happens everywhere when people have a position of power over children.
Here in Germany it has been revealed that the church set up a whole network shuffling around offenders (or sending them away to south america) and muddling traces. It's even been shown that the former pope knew about such cases. It's systemic.
Basically it's a combination of supposed moral authority, intransparency, and mutual cover ups. People are willing to look the other way a lot when they perceive of someone as having a higher mission or great social standing. That includes law enforcement. Think of Donald Trump who's a fraudster-racist-rapist-insurrectionist and yet the MAGA crowd loves him. Maybe celibacy plays into it as well, sexual urges don't stop just because you don a robe.
Younger people are less and less religious with each generation. So at least from that angle the problem might eventually go away.
Historically, it's been alleged that some 'celibate' Catholic bishops fucked women. When the resulting bastard children grew up, they were rewarded with coveted Church appointments. If anyone noticed the apparent favoritism, they blamed the adultery on their brother, saying the appointee was a nephew (it: nipote) rather than the priest's own illegitimate son. Thus the origin of the term nepotism.
Probably some of them had different tastes and realized that fucking boys leaves less evidence.
Catholic church is responsible for the worst atrocities in history.
Honestly not sure how anyone could support them anymore with how readily available historical information is.
In Germany there has been a court ruling that it is allowed to call the catholic church a “Kinderfickersekte” which translates to “child raping cult”.
It was only a lower court and the church choose to not object against it probably because they were smart enough to fear the additional publicity this would get if a higher court would confirm it. https://taz.de/Gotteslaesterung-ist-kein-Problem/!5067953/?t
Germans really need permits for everything.
Here we don’t need to be allowed to call them that, we just can.
With allowed it doesn't literally mean allowed. It means being able to publicly call them that without the church being able to sue for defamation.
Free speech is a thing in Germany, you can say pretty much what you want. But if you go around and accusing people of fucking kids, there's going to be consequences.
We say in Germany everything that is not explicitly allowed is forbidden. And this is just a little bit exaggerated, but not much.
I mean that's completely wrong as far as laws go. Socially that's pretty much true
I think in most countries the church would hit you with a cease and desist notice if you called them a child raping cult.
That's not exclusively German.
load more comments
(6 replies)
I think people haven't changed that much in their nature, what changed is the culture and since a few decades people have been more open and daring to talk about it in spite of any stigmas.
I could swear I've read Marquis de Sade saying priests very often hide all sorts of dirty secrets about boys. That was a couple centuries ago...
Erasmus put this in his 1514 dialogue "Julius Excluded From Heaven" (Julius II is being examined by St Peter at the gates):
PETER: [...] hope it won't be too tiresome for you to answer a few clumsy questions about the details. Who, for example, are these little curly-headed striplings?
JULIUS: I brought them up for my diversion.
I don't understand how the organization doesn't collapse. It shows how, like so many things in society, people are inhuman scum, that they keep oppressive systems and organizations alive despite mountains of evidence of its harmfulness.
Kind of given considering the nature of the job. I heard a radio show where they talked about this with someone in the church who explained that the church offers forgiveness for sins to people who are willing to commit to God. I don't think to many pedophiles want to be attracted to kids and see themselves as evil. It's around the same age that the priesthood is calling that young guys start to realize these attractions. The church is a place for these people to go celabete and purge themselves of their evil but reality is the church can't do that. Instead their ranks fill with these pedophiles same as it gets filled with our types of people who see themselves as sinners; ex drug users and wall street bankers. The whole radio show made me feel like the church could be a victim in all this as well. But then they fuck up by hiding these people and shuffling them around instead of bringing them to justice.
Well you have nearly the complete story. Church is about control: if you help someone hide his crimes, they have acess to repeated rape and you have control over them because you can always expose them. It might even build loyalty. Case and point marriage and celebacy: probably the only thing threatening the churches control-by-faith is the drive to protect your spouse and children. So they are not allowed to have them. Bonus round: why is there a concept of "sin" and "confession"? Because this helps the church know all the dirty secrets of powerful people and their loved ones. The rest is history (blackmail).
load more comments
(1 replies)
Some might argue that's the point of the church.
Ive honestly thought that there is a distinct possiblity that hundreds of years ago the church was the unspoken way to dispose of your children who had no interest in breeding and furthering the family line. They are your kids, and you love them but if they arent carrying their weight in the family...
So off to the dark building full of shadowy alcoves, loose fitting clothing and lots of secrecy full of other men "cut of a similar cloth".
There was a pretty good episode of Always Sunny where Mac wants to become a priest because he is trying to hide him being gay. Their priest that is trying to convince Mac to join turns out to be a pedophile.
load more comments
(4 replies)
There was a gigantic scandal where I grew up in Boston in the 90s/00s... it brought a lot of claims out of the woodwork and it turns out that priests diddle a lot of young kids and it's fucking awful.
Just the latest offenders, but please look at the size of this database: https://www.bishop-accountability.org/accused/
A common way of manipulating people is to deny them parts of being human. Be wary of any organization that tries to control your food or sex. Fasting and abstinence are massive red flags that the organization is toxic.
Well, priests aren't supposed to get married or have kids. I guess they found a loophole to "still get into heaven", or something. Who knows. It's all fucked up.
Been happening for a long time. It's also not just Catholic church. All religions are guilty of some sick shit. ALL OF THEM!
load more comments
(3 replies)
I mean you give people authority over kids and then teach them to hate the sexual part of their personality, and something's gonna go wrong, probably way more often than it goes right.
I haven't done any real reading on it yet, this is just a really common sense starting hypothesis. So don't take it for more than that. But that's my guess.
For the hows, I find the life of Marcial Maciel a raw example. For how long, I wouldn't put it in the beginning of the roman-catholic church, but centuries have passed for sure.
Been going on for thousands of years. The more information access we have the more we hear about these kinds of things.
view more: next ›