Israel's blatant disregard for life is inflaming antisemitism and making life actively more dangerous for Jews abroad that have nothing to do with Israel's genocide.
this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2024
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For Israel this is a benefit: more colonists to load into illegal settlements filled with dead palestinians
For fucks sake!
Israel is not at all the same as the Jewish Religion no matter what the ethno-Fascists Zionists and the child-mass-murder-loving politicians in the Anglo-Saxon World and Germany say.
Bloody useful idiots.
More Jews live outside of Israel than live Inside. And while Jews do have the right to claim Israeli citizenship if they can prove their heritage, it's become very uncommon as even the children of Holocaust survivors are dying out. Their kids don't feel unsafe in other countries like the previous generations were given reason to.
[They] don't feel unsafe in other countries like the previous generations were given reason to.
While that may be true in some places, it's not true everywhere:
In Wake Of Increasing Anti-Semitic Attacks, More Jews Flee France (2016, and it has only increased since)
2,600 people have moved to Israel since Hamas invaded. New arrivals cite incidents of being spat on, bullied, and general rise in antisemitism
I wouldn't call 2600 people out of over 15 million especially significant.
Really? Over 2 1/2 months? In the middle of a war?
It's been over 250k in the past decade, although I don't have any information on how much of that has been due to antisemitism.
I'm just saying this is not mass migration we're talking about in terms of the population as a whole. I think we will continue to see population parity between the entire Jewish population in Israel and New York City for quite some time. In fact, New York City's Jewish population is slightly higher. 7.5 million vs. 7.2 million for all of Israel.
I only meant to draw your attention to the fact that antisemitism is driving a growing portion of Jewish migration (largely to Israel). France, for example, has seen 7% of the Jews leave in the past decade alone (over 15% since 1990 - from 530k-446k).
This is not a trend seen in other groups in France - just Jews.
Sure, I won't argue that. I think we're making two different points, to be honest.
I don't disagree with you at all. Just adding some context about how seriously antisemitism is impacting Jews in the West.
Shit man, there are even Jews who are against the very existence of Israel for religious reasons.
I mean, only a fucking ignorant racist idiot would believe the bollocks about Israel and the Jewish Religion being the same thing and I apply that to both the the morons passing laws that make demonstrating against the Israeli Genocide be treated as anti-semitism and to the morons attacking Jews because of the actions of Israel.
Mind you, in many places Neoliberalism so normalized "benevolent" racism (the kind that says "people from this ethnic group are good" or that "this nation represents this ethnicity") that it made it easy for many to flip from that into "malevolent" racism (i.e. "people of this ethnicity are bad") when the "representatives" of the ethnicity do evil shit.
This is not to justify the racism morons: I'm just pointing out that when you constantly plow and fertilize the moral ideas field with Prejudice ("people should be judged by their ethnicity"), don't be surprised when it's just as fertile to grow "people of this ethnicity are good and deserve special treatment" ideas as "people of this ethnicity are evil and deserve 'special' treatment" ones.
(Sorry for the blow up: I really detest the slimy manipulative racism of Neoliberalist Modern Politics that adjusted the tribalism, prejudice and racism of the old days into a "fashionable" format to keep using it to manipulate the masses, rather than genuinelly be "liberal" - i.e. all people are the same and should be judged by their own beliefs and actions - in the moral sense)
I don't disagree with you at all that Israel has definitely fanned the flames of antisemitism, but having been on the receiving end from people who even like Israel (many evangelicals Christians want people like me forcibly exiled to Israel so Jesus can come back), it's not just Israel.
People hate Jews for all sorts of reasons. A lot of evangelicals hate me because my ancestors apparently killed Jesus, even though it was the Romans, and that's my fault. People like Elon Musk and his ilk hate me because I apparently control the banks and Hollywood. People like Nick Fuentes hate me because Hitler hated people like me and he loves Hitler. I'm sure some people hate me just because I'm slightly different from them.
And I don't mean to restrict this to just Jews. What I saw happen to my Muslim brothers and sisters after 9/11 was disgusting, and even these days you have people essentially claiming all Muslims are terrorists. And both Jews and Muslims in America are essentially considered foreigners in our own country. I'm from Indiana, but that doesn't matter even though I guarantee you that I have more in common with a Palestinian American born in Montana than either of us have with a Jew in Israel or a Muslim in Palestine.
There is so much hate in this world.
A lot of evangelicals hate me because my ancestors apparently killed Jesus
That was the official catholic church doctrine until 1965 as well.
I've found it funny that historically Christians hate Jews so much. They worship one, after all.
That, and- didn't Jesus have to die for everyone's sins?
Shouldn't they be thanking me for my service?
It's not surprising and kinda dovetails with the point I was making: prejudice kept being cultivated throught the XX and XXI century in a different form, making the field just as fertile for traditional racism as it was making it for the (supposedly) "benevolent" racism fashionable in this era.
Whenever somebody says "ethnicity are victims" and "we should do this special thing for them we do not do for other people", what's being passed right besides the supposedly benevolent message is another, far less nice, message: "people of ethnicity are different from other people and should be treated differently from people of other ethnicities".
It didn't help that (not just in terms of ethnicity) many with the "right" "ism" went far beyond the (rightful and totally just) fight for Equality Of Treatment and took advantage of the "benevolent" prejudice for Personal Gain whilst hiding behind the group, which indirectly caused discomfort in others who saw it as unfair.
So both the supposedly anti-Racists and the Racists kept the Architecture Of Prejudice going not just in speech but even in action, and it seems to me that Jews are suffering the most from it now because the traditional anti-semites kept being assholes, and now, because of the actions of Israel, many of the people who previously believed the "positive" kind of message about Jews I listed above (which can only be believed by believing the Principles of Prejudice underlying it) flipped from a "positive" predesposition towards the ethnicity to a "negative" predesposition, whilst continuing to believe the foundation of Prejudice - i.e. they turned from being what we were told by poiticians was anti-Racism into traditional Racists.
Not only is there, as you say, so much hate in this World, but the sleazy slimy disgusting manipulation in this domain of the masses for personal gain by politicians and just greedy people hiding behind "the group" that pushed "positive" discrimination, made it immenselly easy to turn favourable opinions of group held by simpletions into unfavourable opinions of group, turning them into people unfairly hating an entire group of people for the hateful actions of a few people in that group, i.e. into traditional racists.
The real opposite of Racism is the thinking that people should only be judged on their actual actions and character and that thinking that a person's ethnicity (gender, sexual orientation or so on) makes them be in a special group and dictates their character is as moronic as thinking that the color of their eyes or the size of their feet makes them be in a special group and dictates their character.
(This is actually the kind of thinking I've had since long before all that's happenning now and going back to learning from the Dutch their posture when it comes to things like homosexuallity which is pretty much "it's all normal so I'm not going to judge people for it" - as much as possible I try to apply that to any form of prejudice on things people were born with)
Antisemitism isn't equal to antizionism..
Stabbing a random Jew in NYC is antisemitism, even if you claim you did it because of Israel
The stabber is a loser and his actions should be denounced by the Muslim community. That guy who got stabbed isn’t responsible for the actions of politicians in a different country.
Every culture has bad actors and good actors. People should remember what it’s like to be held responsible or accountable for the actions of someone else. All cultures have done this to each other at some point.
Blaming random civilians for the big things which someone thinks are wrong in the world is an inherently wrong and dangerous thing to do. The police should also investigate if this stabber might not have other motives, like did someone incite this person to start a conflict in this community?
his actions should be denounced by the Muslim community.
It is not the job of any minority community to denounce members of that community when they do heinous things. If a black man stabs a white man because he hates white people, no one would be calling on the black community specifically to denounce him (except maybe Republicans).
He committed murder. There's no need to make some public denouncement. He's on video attempting to commit the murder. He's been arrested for attempted murder. He's clearly a guy who planned to commit a murder. He can say it was for Palestine, but that doesn't make Palestinians responsible and it certainly wouldn't make, for example, a Muslim from Indonesia responsible.
Sorry I meant the local Muslim community, not anyone at large. Muslims are not a monolith.
But that’s my point though, I don’t think it’s a good idea for a random Muslim to blame a random Jewish person for what politicians are doing. If anything, our shared and collective helplessness against larger and out of control forces should unite us.
The stabber is a loser and his actions should be denounced by the Muslim community. That guy who got stabbed isn’t responsible for the actions of politicians in a different country.
Aren't these 2 sentences mutually contradictory? If your argument is that people aren't responsible for the actions of others of the same ethnicity, then logically the Muslim community has no obligation to say anything as they're not responsible.
I should have clarified, I didn’t mean Muslims at large. The ordinary Muslim shouldn’t be expected to respond to such events. People who call themselves religious community leaders, however, can make such general statements, as they have done so in the past. In common parlance, it’s assumed that that’s what meant by “Muslim community”, ie someone who is a leader of a mosque or community group, but I agree I assumed too much about the common understanding of such a term
For those of y'all who say that we don't have an antisemitism problem on the left - this seems to be another example showing that we do, and we need to deal with it. Similarly to how movements in the past have been sabotaged by excluding groups (like white-only unions excluding nonwhite people), this could similarly fracture us along identity lines.
When a Muslim is stabbed, no one seems to rant about Iran, Iraq and other Muslim countries making life for their people less unsafe.
On the other hand, the fact someone stabs a Jew, it’s clearly Israel’s fault.
This approach is incorrect no matter what.
Someone wasn't around right after 9/11
Yeah, I was about to say. This person is either in their 20's, or they live somewhere other than the USA.
Oh, wow, Whataboutism.
Hadn't seen that specific falacy being used in defense of ethno-Fascist genocidal child mass murderers in at least 5 minutes...
What was I defending and where?
Sure...
Your worry about posters here "unfairly" blaming Israel - whose government can't stop genociding men, women and children of another ethnicity at the same time as claiming they represent all Jews and call those that criticize that government and that genocide anti-semites - for the increase of acts of anti-semitism justified by said genocide, is purelly the result of you being a pure, loving soul that can't but empathise with the suffering of the poor Genocidal ethno-Fascists.
I mean, what pure soul out there wouldn't feel pain when people are "unfairly" blaming genocidal ethno-Fascists who claim to represent an entire ethnicity and accuse those critical of them of being against that ethnicity, for an increase in actions against that ethnicity justified by the genocide being commited by those ethno-Fascists: there is clearly no relation at all between ethno-Fascists doing horrible deeds claiming it's for an entire ethnicity and there being people who believe that ethnicity is responsible for those crimes.
And don't get me started on how your choice of "whatabout" targets just happen to be Islamic nations and Islam, THE favorite choice of pro-Zionism racists, and not even being an equivalent "whatabout" since none of those nation went around committing genocide whilst claiming to represent Islam and accusing critics of being Islamophobic.
Clearly you're just one big misunderstood impeccably fair softy and all the coincidences in the kind, form, quality and target of that argument of yours with the style used by pro-Zionist racists is just an amazing coincidence.
No, I just pointed out a trend that is happening in this post. Most of the context you just made up.
Definitely I am not excusing any of Israel’s actions that are truly atrocious.
There are two reasons for something being said by multiple people:
- It's just people following people, and repeating what others said, which indeed is a trend.
- It's multiple people independently deriving the same conclusions from the facts on the ground.
If somebody is shot on the street in front of a crowd and dies, and 10 passerbys who saw it are interviewed and all say that "a person was murdered", it's not a trend, it's them deriving the same conclusion from having observed what happenned.
Similary the people here having read again and again, from the government of Israel and Western "leaders" such as Sholz and Biden calling Israel "the Jewish Nation" and even accusing those critical of Israel and its actions of being anti-semite (i.e. of being "against Jews", not of being against Israel) and then seeing news of somebody attacking a Jew whilst loudly criticising Israel, multiple people are all concluding from that base data that all those claims of Israel representing Jews are why some people really do believe Israel represents Jews, is simple logic: cause and consequence rather than a social mechanism like a "trend".
It's so simple logic, that confusing it with a meme is strange.
Beyond that, the tendency for people to actually go to the trouble of sharing with others that conclusion here now is probably driven by their outrage at the actions of Israel in recent times - very few people were pointing out the logic conclusion that "Israel claiming to represent Jews will lead others to actually believe it and hence blame Jews for any bad actions of Israel" back when the Israeli Genocide was slow burning and they weren't murdering thousands of chidren a month.
How is this relevant to what I said?
I don't mean to disparage the real risk of antisemitism, but this might be making a mountain out of a molehill, and "thetimesofisrael" isn't my favourite source in these times.
My point is rather that stabbings are pretty common in NYC. This guy have probably did have antisemitic motivations, I believe that, but in a city so large and so prone to violence, that's sort of bound to happen at some point. It doesn't justify it, but I think one shouldn't be drawing conclusions of "growing antisemitism" because of one crazy in New York.
I don't mean to disparage the real risk of antisemitism
But you're going to do it anyway? Interesting strategy.
in a city so large and so prone to violence, that's sort of bound to happen at some point.
This is a really stupid take. The violence did happen, and the motive appears to be ethnic hatred. Curious that you want the media to stay silent about it.
I think one shouldn't be drawing conclusions of "growing antisemitism" because of one crazy in New York
So you're just going to pretend that this is the first ever antisemitic incident that has ever occurred in NYC or elsewhere in recent history? The article doesn't even cite rising antisemitism in NYC, but rather globally, which is objectively true. Antisemitic hate crimes (like this one) are on the rise worldwide.
Ngl, you sound like you have a pretty specific agenda with this response...
But you're going to do it anyway?
I am? When? You can read my future? What are the winning lottery numbers for this week's draw?
appears to be
The word "appears" doing a lot of heavy lifting there. When researching sources, the stories have lines such as "allegedly", kind of a lot in them. And still, I'm not questioning the veracity of it, am I?
Have you heard of "media criticism"? Or if you practice media criticism at all, it makes you an antisemite?
So you're just going to pretend that this is the first ever antisemitic incident that has ever occurred in NYC or elsewhere in recent history?
Where on Earth did you pull this shit from?
The point is exactly that in a city the size of New York — unfortunate and unwanted as it is — hate crimes of all types, including antisemitism, are something that has always, (but hopefully will not always) happen.
With how explosive the rhetoric and protesting around this topic is, I fail to the importance of this story in the bigger picture.
I'm not gonna start whatabouting by linking several instances of some other group getting attacked, because this isn't a competition on who is getting hatecrimed the most.
The point I am making is that unfortunate as this is, it's implying something that it doesn't back up.