this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2023
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Linux

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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Don't get me wrong. I love Linux and FOSS. I have been using and installing distros on my own since I was 12. Now that I'm working in tech-related positions, after the Reddit migration happened, etc. I recovered my interest in all the Linux environment. I use Ubuntu as my main operating system in my Desktop, but I always end up feeling very limited. There's always software I can't use properly (and not just Windows stuff), some stuff badly configured with weird error messages... last time I was not able to even use the apt command. Sometimes I lack time and energy for troubleshooting and sometimes I just fail at it.

I usually end up in need of redoing a fresh install until it breaks up again. Maybe Linux is not good for beginners working full time? Maybe we should do something like that Cisco course that teaches you the basic commands?

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[–] Obsession@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago

I'm a devops engineer, so I understand Linux well. I actually used exclusively Linux all throughout university.

Linux works just as good as windows for 98% of my uses cases. And for the 2% that it doesnt, I can probably figure out how to get it to work or an alternative.

But honestly, I usually just don't want to anymore. After working 8 hours, I'm very seldom in the mood to do more debugging, so I switch to Windows more and more frequently.

If this is my experience as someone who understands it, most normies will just fuck off the moment the first program they want to run doesn't.

[–] HughJanus@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is always a hilarious conversation because the diehard Linux users will lie up and down about how Linux has no problems and it's just you that's too dumb to understand how to use it.

[–] NathanUp@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Initial setup can be hard, and then, because GNU/Linux lets you do whatever you want, It's not hard to bork the system if you're using commands you don't understand. The biggest realization for me was that if I want a stable system, I can't expect to experiment with it / customize it to the nth degree unless I have a robust rollback / recovery solution like timeshift in place. Feeling very empowered after leaving windows, I have destroyed many systems, but truly, if you set up your system and then leave it alone, these days it's not difficult to have a good experience.

But yea, you're totally right: the userbase can be toxic AF, and there's no one place you can go to learn the basics you really ought to know.

[–] HughJanus@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Initial setup can be hard, and then, because GNU/Linux lets you do whatever you want, It's not hard to bork the system if you're using commands you don't understand.

But it borks itself. It doesn't require my assistance.

[–] VonVoelksen@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 1 year ago

No, no OS "borks" itself. You just didnt realise what you did and why it borked your system in the end. This happens to Windows-Users too. I ended up reinstalling so many Windows machines and the user always told me they didnt do anything. I use Linux for about three years now and had to reinstall several times, because I made mistakes I couldn`t identify as mistakes at that moment. Sometimes Linux is complicated and you have to search for a solution. If you would have used Linux your whole life an switched to Windows, your experience would be very similar.

[–] rocketeer8015@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Nope, it doesn’t. It always requires human assistance or random hardware failure. It’s either the user, the distro, package maintainer or upstream fucking up.

Personally I blame half on users for picking the wrong distro(not suited for beginners) and half on the linux community giving poor advice(use the terminal). Not everyone has the time or inclination to become a power user and if people wouldn’t be so thickheaded and recommending the same problematic distros over and over to these people it wouldn’t be such a mess.

I have a 80 year old neighbour whose old windows laptop was a mess and who was open to trying a new OS(because he couldn’t operate windows either anyway). I setup a MicroOS system for him, put a taskbar extension on it and showed him how to install software from gnome-software(which only has flatpaks). ZERO problems in half a year. He doesn’t have to do anything nor learn anything. He happily installed some card games, reads the few websites he follows and that’s it.

[–] HughJanus@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nope, it doesn’t.

Yep...it does.

It’s either the user, the distro, package maintainer or upstream fucking up.

Yes that's what I'm referring to.

[–] rocketeer8015@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 1 year ago

So it’s people borking it and not the “system itself”. You have control over which people are involved in the software on your system ne it affects the likelihood of it ending up borked.

[–] NathanUp@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Agreed, you get to pick between a system that empowers you to do whatever you like, or an unborkable system. If you need something that won't let you shoot yourself in the foot, you ought to be using an immutable distro.

For ages I blamed GNU/Linux for breaking when I was unknowingly causing issues. These days, I don't fix what isn't broken, and if I can't help myself, I make sure I understand what I'm doing, write down any changes I make, and ensure I have a snapshot ready in case things don't work out.

GNU/Linux may not exclusively be for advanced users anymore, but system customization still is.

[–] HughJanus@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Agreed, you get to pick between a system that empowers you to do whatever you like, or an unborkable system.

Yeah that's not true. There is no such thing as an "unborkable" system. There are, however, systems that aren't often borked by their developers, and systems that are easy or intuitive to fix when they do become borked, or systems that quickly ship a fix when they do become "borked" (this is Windows BTW).

The implication that any "borked" Linux install was somehow self-inflicted by the user is ridiculous.

[–] s20@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hey, the other day I set up a fresh Arch install in like an hour; it was easy as hell with Arch Installer in its current state. But that's me - I've been running Linux for a while, so i might be a bit out of touch with what new folks have issues with.

That said, I think a lot of problems new users have with Linux really do come down to foolish mistakes, an unwillingness to read manuals, expecting Linux to work like Windows/Mac, or a combination of the above.
Not all problems, but many.

[–] HughJanus@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Setting is up is always easy. Having it do what you need it to, day in and day out, without fail, is the hard part.

[–] phillycodehound@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's the same way Mastodon and the Fediverse is so damn frustrating to many people. They don't want to have to think and just want shit to work.

[–] Cypher@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

This is oft repeated but is short sighted, it is NOT that people do not want to think, it is that they don’t have the time and energy to constantly fight their devices to perform simple tasks.

[–] MiloSquirrel@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There's a lot of little things to you need to learn, that you don't learn until actually messing around with in Linux which absolutely make or break your experience with Linux, and that Linux users will mock you for asking about.

For a lot of people windows just works how they want it, so when they're convinced to switch by a friend/family member/youtuber they now have to relearn what was incredibly easy for them, which absolutely will cause frustrations regardless.

And a lot of Linux dudes get really defensive and elitist when you ask them to explain or help, like screaming that you're afraid of the command line when you've just never needed to use it before. So the initial learning curve is rough, to het more or less what you had before(For an avg user)

Like. I'm sorry, but having an issue keeping you from using your pc, and only getting advice to read the documentation of the distro, when you could have just kept windows, is going to frustrate people

[–] megane_kun@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

The following sums up my experience with Linux thus far: "It's never been easier for the newb to jump right in, but heavens help them if they ever stray from the straight path".

There's been a lot of effort to make things easier for a newb (used to Windows and all that shit) to do what they need to do in most cases. There's been all sorts of GUI-based stuff that means for the 'average' user, there's really no need for them to interact with the command line. That's all well and good until you need to do something that wasn't accounted for by the devs or contributors.

All of a sudden, you'd have not only to use the command line, you may also have to consult one of the following:

  • Well-meaning, easy to understand, but ultimately unhelpfully shallow help pages (looking at you, Libre Office), or the opposite: deep, dense, and confusing (Arch) Wiki pages.
  • One of the myriads of forum pages each telling the user to RTFM, "program the damned thing yourself", "go back to Windows", all of the above, or something else that delivers the same unhelpful message.
  • Ultra-dense and technical man pages of a command that might possibly be of help.

And that's already assuming you've got a good idea of what the problem was, or what it is that you are to do. Trouble-shooting is another thing entirely. While it's true that Linux has tons of ways to make troubleshooting a lot easier, such as logs, reading through them is a skill a lot of us don't have, and can't be expected of some newb coming from Windows.

To be fair to Linux though, 90% of the time, things are well and good. 9% of the time, there's a problem here and there, but you're able to resolve it with a little bit of (online) help, despite how aggravating some of that "help" might be. 1% of the time, however, Linux will really test your patience, tolerance, and overall character.

Unfortunately, it's that 10% that gives Linux its "hard to use" reputation, and the 1% gives enough scary stories for people to share.

[–] Melpomene@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Linux user here, also once upon a time a Windows admin. I think the most difficult thing for most users is not that Linux is difficult, but that it is different.

Take Pop_OS for example. For the average "I check email and surf the web" user, it works wonderfully. But most people grew on Windows or Mac so its just not what they're used to. Linux is kind of the stick shift to Windows and Mac's automatic transmission... its not hard to learn, but most folk don't choose to make the effort because they don't need to.

[–] BaumGeist@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

My first experience with linux was Ubuntu. Sue me, it was listed under most "most user friendly distro" listicles when I wasn't smart enough to realize those were mostly marketing.

It worked fine for my purposes, though it took getting used to, but it would wake itself up from sleep after a few minutes. I would have to shut it off at night so that I wouldn't wake up in a panic as an eerie light emanated through the room from my closed laptop. I did my best searching for the problem, but could never find a solution that worked; in retrospect, I probably just didn't have the language to adequately describe the problem.

Nothing about the GUI was well-documented to the degree that CLI apps were. If I needed to make any changes, there would be like one grainy video on youtube that showed what apps to open and buttons to click and failed to solve my problem, but a dozen Stack Exchange articles telling me exactly what to do via the terminal.

I remember going off on some friends online when they tried to convince me Linux and the terminal were superior. I ranted about how this stupid sleep issue was indicative of larger, more annoying problems that drove potential users away. I raged about how hostile to users this esoteric nerds-only UX is. I cried about Windows could be better for everyone if the most computer-adept people would stop jumping ship for mediocre OSes.

I met another friend who used Arch (btw) within a year from that hissy fit, and she fixed my laptop within minutes. Using a CLI app nonetheless. I grumbled angrily to myself.

A few years later and everyone's home all the time for some reason, and I get the wild idea that I'm going to be a(n ethical) hacker for whatever reason. I then proceeded to install Kali on a VM and the rest is history.

The point being that some people labor under the misguided belief that technology should conform to the users, and because we were mostly raised on Windows or Mac, we develop the misconception that those interfaces are "intuitive" (solely because we learned them during the best time in our life to pick up new skills). Then you try to move to linux for whatever reason and everything works differently and the process is jarring and noticeably requires the user conforming to the technology--i.e. changing bad habits learned from other OSes to fit the new one. The lucky few of us go on to learn many other OSes and start to see beyond the specifics to the abstract ideas similar to all of them, then it doesn't matter if you have to work with iOS or TempleOS, you understand the basics of how it all fits together.

TL;DR Category theorists must be the least frustrated people alive

[–] krellor@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

For most people computers are just the same as cars. People want a car that will drive them from place to place, are easy to refuel, easy to operate, and can be taken to an expert for anything difficult or that requires specialized knowledge. Same for computers. Most people want a computer to navigate the web, install the apps they are used to and that their friends use, is easy to operate, and can be taken to an expert for any involved work.

Even the friendliest of Linux distro don't check all those boxes. You cant get ready support from a repair shop, many of the apps are different or function differently, and it doesn't receive all the same love and attention from major third party developers as Windows does.

Most people could learn to use Linux; it's not that hard. Most people could learn to change their own oil. But for most people, it's not worth it. For most people it's not the journey, it's the destination and cars and computers are just tools to get there.

[–] voidMainVoid@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

To use your car analogy, using Windows is like using a car that has the hood welded shut and can only be opened with a special key that only the auto manufacturer has.

You can't repair it yourself. You can't just take it to any expert to get it fixed. Only the manufacturer can fix it, because the source code (or car hood) is closed.

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

Using it since I was 12

People have been using X since that age so anything different is going to be jarring. Just the smallest roadblocks can put people off of stuff. Why bother learning something new when the old thing works?

[–] wada@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

You don't choose Linux. Linux choose you. That being said

It's not that hard actually but you need a lot of free time and motivation to keep learning. When I was a student I was deep on Archlinux + DWM / AwesomeWM + lots of console applications now that I am a functional working men I just stick to a stable distro (Currently Debian Testing) I think the secret is have good hardware compatibility and if you want to try some weird configuration just use a VM first or just use a immutable distro.

[–] TheQuantumPhysicist@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Linux community doesn't understand what "just works" really means.

Whether windows or mac, I plug my machine to the docking station, and it just works.

With Linux, every day a different problem. Out of the blue, screens just stop working. Resolutions change. Every restart different behavior. Zero consistency.

I'm not 17 anymore... I don't have the time to keep tweaking. I need to be productive.

So what do I do? I SSH to a Linux machine whose desktop environment I don't wanna see, and code remotely. Most productive setting.

You asked. Here's the answer.

[–] ragepaw@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 week ago

That's my answer too. I went a month with just trying to make basic things work. Had to go back to being productive. Now, I bought another drive and I spend time whenever I have it. Once everything works as i need it to, I'll switch full time.

[–] philluminati@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People hate Linux because shows they aren’t computer experts, they’re just Windows power users.

[–] TheButtonJustSpins@infosec.pub 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, but you can't expect every person using a computer to be a computer expert. In fact, you should expect most of us not to be.

[–] philluminati@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

Man 100%. If anyone wants to be a computer expert and is struggling, just stick with it and keep learning. You have to learn through experimentation and effort!

It's just an attitude thing that some people's egos are hurt when Linux confuses them.

[–] SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I've been exclusively using Linux for almost a decade now. I started in high school when the computer we had at home was painfully slow with Windows. At start, it did seem a bit hard to wrap my head around. I was a kid, and there was no one who used Linux to teach me. I guess the installation etc. are much simpler nowadays. And the online spaces are much less toxic.

Even after all that, the main reason, I believe, is that it's different. If someone is using a stable distro like Debian, and just wants to do what 90% of people do (i.e. browsing, looking at documents media etc.), Linux isn't really a hassle. The installation process might be daunting to some people. But after that, they don't need to open a terminal ever if they don't want to. My sister is basically tech illiterate, and she's been running Mint for a few years now. Never heard any complaints. Only issue she had was when she deleted her .config folder. But I had set up a script that backed up dotfiles to her external drive, so it was easily fixable.

People get frustrated because whenever something happens on Linux, and they go online, they see all these walls of text that they need to read, and commands they need to run. But they forget that on Windows and Macs, that isn't even an option. Most of the time, you need to reset your system. Or, in the case of Macs, get it replaced. The frustration that people experience is caused by conditioning. They accept the inconveniences of Windows and Macs because they grew up with it. But since Linux is new to them, the shortcomings stick out much more.

TL;DR: For the average user, the OS doesn't matter (they should probably still use Linux for increased privacy). For the power user, unless some specific applications they need are missing, Linux is always the best choice. The frustration is mostly due to conditioning.

[–] shapis@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If someone is using a stable distro like Debian, and just wants to do what 90% of people do (i.e. browsing, looking at documents media etc.), Linux isn’t really a hassle.

I see this point repeated a lot, it's just not true.

For example sudo apt upgrade is broken currently on the debian live images.

Imagine you tell someone "if you want stable, go debian" they hear it and install it and literally first apt update upgrade it's borked.

There isnt a distro that isnt a hassle, that doesnt exist.

[–] Audacity9961@feddit.ch 1 points 1 year ago

Why would you be running apt upgrade on live images?