this post was submitted on 27 Sep 2023
41 points (100.0% liked)

Technology

37699 readers
228 users here now

A nice place to discuss rumors, happenings, innovations, and challenges in the technology sphere. We also welcome discussions on the intersections of technology and society. If it’s technological news or discussion of technology, it probably belongs here.

Remember the overriding ethos on Beehaw: Be(e) Nice. Each user you encounter here is a person, and should be treated with kindness (even if they’re wrong, or use a Linux distro you don’t like). Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Subcommunities on Beehaw:

This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
alyaza@beehaw.org
TheRtRevKaiser@beehaw.org
gyrfalcon@beehaw.org
rs5th@beehaw.org
coldredlight@beehaw.org
Los@beehaw.org
SemioticStandard@beehaw.org
TheRtRevKaiser@kbin.social
remington@beehaw.org
41
Apple exec defends the decision to make Google its default search engine on iPhones and Macs (apnews.com)
submitted 1 year ago by throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to c/technology@beehaw.org
16 comments fedilink hide all child comments
top 16 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] Luke_Fartnocker@lemm.ee 34 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I disagreed with the Microsoft charges back then, and I disagree with the case against Google now. I hate both of them and I think they use monopolistic tactics, but making their own search engine or browser the default in their OS isn't monopolistic, especially since you can easily change it.

The tactics that should be fought against are things like when Google used its size and money to offer free unlimited cloud photo storage. That put several cloud services out of business because they couldn't compete with "free unlimited" storage. Then, when all the competition was gone, Google started charging for their service which was no longer unlimited.

When someone tries to compete with Google, Google either uses their power to put them out of business or buys them. That is totally monopolistic and what the government should be defending against.

[–] davehtaylor@beehaw.org 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

MS did exactly what you describe Google doing with free unlimited storage.

In the 90s, it absolutely was not easy to change your browser because operating systems didn't come with browsers. You had to go to a physical store, buy a box of software, and go home and install it. Sure you could find an OSS browser if you knew how to browse the net via command line, but your average newcomer to the net in the mid 90s had no clue how to do so. For the most part, browsers existed as a purchase.

But then MS decided to bundle their browser in for free with the OS, which at the time was the most widely used OS by far, and it completely eviscerated the market. Imagine you're an average user and you now have IE as part of your new Windows 95 install. What impetus do you have to go out and spend $60 on another browser?

MS took their existing market dominance and used it to completely destroy the competition in the browser space. And it took decades to break that stranglehold.

The shitty part tho is that we traded one monopolist for another. Now that Google is dominating the browser world, they're essentially controlling the shape of the web and how we use it

[–] Luke_Fartnocker@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wasn't that tech savvy when I got my first desktop in 1994. Until then, I had only had a Commodore 64. I started with AOL because it seemed like the only way to get on the internet. Once I figured out that it was a horrible and expensive product I switched to a flat rate provider, rather than "by the minute" (which was a scam when it took 2 minutes just to download 1 webpage). The instillation disk came bundled with Netscape Navigator for free. I used Netscape from 1995 until it morphed into Firefox, and then continued using Firefox until a few years ago when better FOSS browsers came out.

It was never that hard to switch derault browsers in Win 98, and Netscape was not only free, but very heavily promoted everywhere.

My son uses Windows. He has machines running Windows 1 all the way up to Windows 11. He loves retro computers. He also has a couple Linux machines, but he prefers Windows even though he constantly talks to me about how horrible Windows is and how many things don't work properly and the surveillance that is embedded in the OS. I know that Microsoft is trying to be as evil as Google. That's why (as I stated on a different comment reply) I think the government went after the default browser issue because it was the softest target. Also, when they won they just forced Microsoft to make it easier to change the default browser, which gave them a victory in the media, but did nothing to curtail Microsoft's tactics.

[–] Nath@aussie.zone 1 points 1 year ago

By the minute made lots more sense in the days before the Web. You'd go online, send/receive your email and log off. Maybe you'd download the weather report also.

That might be the only time you went online all day. 5 minutes tops. That's how about half the ISP users used the Internet in the early 90's.

[–] ninjan@lemmy.mildgrim.com 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You're completely missing the point to a level that feels dishonest. You've already gotten a great reply around why you're wrong on Microsoft so I'll keep to Google.

Google started out providing the superior service and didn't do anything overtly shady. Then the shady shit started, cloud storage was one thing as mentioned, others include doing the Microsoft thing of not following web standards properly, in Googles case with the argument that their way is faster/better etc effectively forcing everyone to code towards their browser (chromium, not just chrome) since it has insane market domination.

Another, and maybe the most egregious because they haven't been slapped for the other stuff, is the privacy bullshit they're doing now around cookies which basically kills off the last remnants of competition around ads online.

Google as the default search is just the tip of the shitberg of monopolistic bullshit imo.

[–] Luke_Fartnocker@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Google as the default search is just the tip of the shitberg of monopolistic bullshit imo.

I agree. That's why I don't understand why they are going after the default search when it's the weakest argument of all of them. I just pointed out one instance where Google is blatantly monopolistic, but there are many more, and there are also many instances where they are breaking other laws. It just seems like the government is sticking to the default search issue because it's soft and they truly don't care. If they win, they can force Google to make it easier to set your search engine. Then they claim a victory, while Google just keeps on invading our privacy and amassing our data for their own profit.

[–] ninjan@lemmy.mildgrim.com 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The real case meat isn't default search though, it's the fact that they have 95%+ of the US online search market. That is stifling innovation and is part of the reason for their ad dominance as well. And they're abusing it as well by making changes which mean they funnel you into ad results, display the content you're after without entering the page in question thus "stealing" traffic and eyeballs and the whole amp bullshit.

Just like AT&T previously completely dominating telecom was a dampener on innovation which became super obvious once the monopoly was ended I think it will be the opening of Internet and search innovation flood gates if this monopoly is broken.

[–] Luke_Fartnocker@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

if this monopoly is broken.

That's the important part. My point is that the government is like a lion going after toes rather than the jugular. They could easily go for something more significant, but they've chosen not to. I think it's because they care more about the show than the result. Not even Google could take on the federal government if it really wanted to break up the monopoly. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not holding my breath. I've seen these shinanigans too many times

[–] abhibeckert@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

t just seems like the government is sticking to the default search issue because it’s soft and they truly don’t care.

Or maybe they're actively investigating the other issues too but aren't ready to bring those to court yet... so they're not saying anything which could affect proceedings.

[–] Luke_Fartnocker@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

I hope that's true, but I wouldn't put money on it.

[–] narc0tic_bird@lemm.ee 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

While I agree that it's fine they make their own browser the default on their operating systems, I wouldn't say it's easy to change the default browser in Windows 11.

Edge shows a popup when visiting official download sites of other browsers. I remember seeing "Edge is like Chrome but with the added trust of Microsoft" when downloading Chrome using Edge. Then you have to go into Windows settings, default apps, scroll until you see your browser of choice and click "Set as default" or something. Then it might beg you to keep Edge the default.

And even after supposedly setting a default browser, using search from the start menu still uses Bing and opens results in Edge. Outlook started to have its own (somewhat hard to find) setting that has "Edge" or "default browser" as options. Guess what the option selected by default is?

Windows can also show you a "finish setting up Windows" assistant every now and then when you login, which sets Edge and Bing as the defaults unless you skip it (which isn't the big, bright, blue button, but a plain link somewhere).

All this together makes it very hard to change your default browser and keep it that way, especially for your average consumer.

[–] Luke_Fartnocker@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

I wouldn't know anything about Windows 11. The last Windows I used personally was XP. We use Windows 7 at work and it's annoying because we have 3 different browsers and we have to use each of them depending upon which company intranet site were viewing because the sites don't all work with all browsers. I don't know why, but I assume that has something to do with Microsoft.

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What else do they expect Apple to set as the default search engine? I can't imagine Apple users being ok with Bing results.

[–] niske@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I like how it works on some browsers where it asks you which search engine you would like to use when you open the browser for the first time.

[–] SecretPancake@feddit.de 4 points 1 year ago

Don’t care about the default, I just wish they would allow custom search engines like Kagi (no that weird redirect trick is not a satisfying solution)

[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 3 points 1 year ago

🤖 I'm a bot that provides automatic summaries for articles:

Click here to see the summaryTestifying in the biggest antitrust trial in a quarter century, Eddy Cue, Apple’s senior vice president of services, said Tuesday that there wasn’t “anybody as good’’ as Google at helping phone and computer users search the internet.

Google counters that it dominates the market because its search engine is better than the competition, a position Cue supported in his testimony.

The antitrust case, the biggest since the Justice Department went after Microsoft and its dominance of internet browsers 25 years ago, was filed in 2020 during the Trump administration.

Mikhail Parakhin, Microsoft’s head of advertising and web services, testified Tuesday that Google’s dominance feeds on itself.

Parakhin also recounted his experience battling Google in his previous job as chief technology officer at the Russian search engine Yandex.

Earlier in the proceedings, the government called a behavioral economist, who testified that Google’s default status discourages users from switching search engines, partly because they are reluctant to change ingrained habits.

Saved 68% of original text.