this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2024
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Free and Open Source Software

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If it's free and open source and it's also software, it can be discussed here. Subcommunity of Technology.


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[–] millie@beehaw.org 107 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (12 children)

Who cares? It's run by reactionary incels, transphobes, and racists. https://cmdr-nova.online/2024/07/03/serenityos-and-ladybird/

[–] mox@lemmy.sdf.org 88 points 5 months ago (8 children)

Who cares? It’s run by reactionary incels, transphobes, and racists.

Wait until you find out who runs Lemmy development.

[–] Vodulas@beehaw.org 28 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Good news, most folks at beehaw know and the admins have decided to move to a new platform

[–] remington@beehaw.org 49 points 5 months ago (11 children)

Correct. We're moving to Sublinks very soon. Buckle up.

[–] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 21 points 5 months ago (4 children)

oh boy I can't wait for all of the integrations to break

also is it just me or is deciding what software you use and do not pay for based on the political views of the people who create it (who again in no way benefit from its use by people who don't donate) incredibly fucking stupid

[–] Lionir@beehaw.org 14 points 5 months ago (4 children)

Don't call people "incredibly fucking stupid". Be(e) nice.

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[–] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 13 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Do you know what topic brought you here?

"Hey guys, let's not use this free software, because of their views."

"Maybe we shouldn't use this other free software because of their views."

"Why are you guys worried about which free software you use based on their views?"

"We can all tell you aren't new, why are you complaining about our unofficial pastime?"

[–] millie@beehaw.org 11 points 5 months ago (6 children)

It's almost like the philosophy behind a software matters to its long-term stability. Like, as if devs might find reasons to, I don't know, reject PRs, ignore bugs, and trash their users when they come to them for help.

Weird that the content of someone's mind might affect their actions or be an indicator of what level of trust they should be extended!

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[–] chamomile@furry.engineer 13 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

@AVincentInSpace @remington The Lemmy devs are infamously difficult to work with. They've repeatedly shown an unwillingness to even acknowledge the existence of the many problems that instance admins face. That has been a big driver in Beehaw's decision to move platforms, not just because of a difference in political views, and they've been pretty open about discussing it. You're way off-base.

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[–] mox@lemmy.sdf.org 14 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Will it federate with Lemmy? I would miss you folks.

[–] remington@beehaw.org 16 points 5 months ago (11 children)

It's my understanding that it will...I believe that's, also, what it means when they (Sublinks developers) said it would be "Lemmy compatible".

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[–] apotheotic@beehaw.org 12 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I am overjoyed to hear that we'll be staying in the fediverse and I can stay with beehaw.

[–] remington@beehaw.org 11 points 5 months ago (1 children)

It will be "Lemmy compatible", so hopefully all of Lemmy apps should work fine.

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[–] delirious_owl@discuss.online 11 points 5 months ago (10 children)

The demo on that link is literally Lemmy lol

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[–] highduc@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago

Lemmy devs are awesome. 1 more reason to use the platform.

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[–] Steve@communick.news 50 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Sometimes terrible people can do good things.
Those good things should be supported.
Judge a project on it own merits.

People still use the Autobahn.

[–] Vodulas@beehaw.org 29 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (14 children)

"What about the good things Hitler did?" Is not the flex you think it is. Also, using the Autobahn does not send support to Nazis

[–] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 11 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Using Lemmy without donating to the developers does not send support to them. Same goes for Ladybird, does it not?

[–] Vodulas@beehaw.org 13 points 5 months ago (13 children)

Adding to popularity does support them.

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[–] Recant@beehaw.org 14 points 5 months ago (6 children)

Great analogy and perspective.

[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 23 points 5 months ago (2 children)

It's not that great an analogy because the autobahn isn't still maintained by Nazis.

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[–] Lionir@beehaw.org 13 points 5 months ago (8 children)

Sometimes terrible people can do good things. Those good things should be supported. Judge a project on it own merits.

The thing here is that Ladybird and SerenityOS are both the community and the code. One cannot live without the other because the code will always need its community to develop it. And in this case, it is not possible to support them without supporting the people who, y'know receive the money. I think nobody is arguing against an independent browser engine - the argument is against the implementation of it.

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[–] drwankingstein@lemmy.dbzer0.com 45 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Boring hit piece that way overblows some issues on the topic.

[–] Recant@beehaw.org 30 points 5 months ago (6 children)

The piece was definitely slanted.

Was what the devs did great? No. Does the whole project need to be outcast/abandoned due to what language they use? No. There needs to be nuance with these issues. Open source does not owe individuals anything and that is why it is provided without warranty. On the flip side, individuals can choose not to use it.

We should be promoting open source software and not have infighting when open source software doesn't have much mass market appeal to begin with.

[–] Lionir@beehaw.org 17 points 5 months ago

We should be promoting open source software and not have infighting when open source software doesn’t have much mass market appeal to begin with.

Just as a side note, I want open source software / free software to have appeal because it is good for people. If the way the promote it to the masses is enabling awful people, I'm really not interested anymore.

[–] Cube6392@beehaw.org 13 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Letting fascists loose on github doesn't make open source software more appealing. Look at how much worse twitter is to be on after relaxing the moderation standards. Now imagine that for open source. We need to make sure open source is approachable to everyone and that means being careful with our language and not being dismissive when someone opens a PR to make the language more approachable to all

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[–] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 18 points 5 months ago (2 children)

No, I'm actually with them on that one. The he / they issue in of itself is tiny, I agree, and if they'd just changed it from gendered to gender neutral language then nobody would've even cared. Most of us tend to write in a gendered way out of habit or because we think about our own gender, and in a casual conversation that isn't that important. But this is about a piece of software that, surely, is not just meant for male audiences. It's just unprofessional to address someone as male by default. Most importantly though, being this stubborn on having the user specifically male is just a weird hill to die on, but even weirder if that particular action is the one that is actually causing the drama - which they allegedly claim wanting to prevent by dismissing "politics". And I'm sorry, but changing a "he" to "they" is not politics, it's just including non male users. Nothing more, nothing less. So why is it such an issue to not just address specifically male users? It really only would be because those people hold some very questionable views, which, in my opinion, clash heavily with the whole concept of free and open source software, which is supposedly for everyone. So if your actions and views are this flawed, how can you be trusted on such an important project?

Also, in regards to this news... "no code from rivals" also is just a stupid thing to say and do. There's plenty of good open source code that they could and probably even SHOULD use. But whatever. I'm not gonna support this project and predict it will fail anyway.

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[–] LukeZaz@beehaw.org 22 points 5 months ago (3 children)

I've no love lost for the developers in question. But between the original two PRs and associated comments being from over three years ago, and the "trans woman [being called] 'spam" comment being said about a PR that seems pretty strongly to me to be meant as a sarcastic insult rather than a genuine contribution, I can't help but find it a little unconvincing.

It's not without merit by far. I feel that Kling's blog post not addressing the drama was in poor taste and may indicate a lack of self-improvement regarding the initial fuckup, and saying you want to "avoid alienating people" when closing a PR that aims to improve inclusivity is more than a little pathetic. I also understand not wanting bigots to be able to just bury their past and pretend they were never bigoted. It's just that the fiery response this has gotten still ends up feeling a bit disproportionate given how old the truly insulting issues were. Am I missing something?

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[–] narc0tic_bird@lemm.ee 16 points 5 months ago

I do, I feel like we desperately need some more competition/options in the browser engine space.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 16 points 5 months ago (2 children)

“reactionary”. Self-aware much?

I do not know either of you.

That said, on the one hand we have a guy that trivial research reveals has been dramatically transparent about his own life, struggles, and frailty in a really humble and disarming way. He shares his talent freely not only with code but mentorship and teaching. He has created a thriving and closer-knit community working together to do interesting and valuable things ( OS and browser ). His somewhat famous tagline is “well, hello friends”. He has also showcased both his wife and other females on his channel. Unless I misunderstand the term “incel”, you are demonstrably and factually wrong on that front at least. The biggest complaint I could find about him elsewhere is that his is “too neutral”. Perhaps that is at play here.

On the other hand, we have somebody directly peddling destruction, slander, and hate ( you ). And why? As far as I can tell, the only contribution the SerenityOS founder has made to this “discussion” is the sentence “This project is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics.”. Is that really it? Overreaction?

That sentence spawned all of this? I must have misunderstood which of you we were labelling as “reactionary”.

Regardless of if the project should have accepted the commit or not ( a valid debate ), I cannot possibly side with this reaction. It is awful.

Downvotes welcome. I would rather be ethical than popular.

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[–] Luci@lemmy.ca 15 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Oh didn't you hear? It's fine now because a PR was finally accepted well after being called out and ~~stepping down~~ stepping aside from the project

/s

[–] DmMacniel@feddit.org 13 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Imagine that talking with people about issues and not just shouting and brigading them actually works. Who would have known.

[–] Luci@lemmy.ca 24 points 5 months ago (4 children)

Like the first time it came up, politely with a complete PR, and it was just shut down?

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[–] sunzu@kbin.run 13 points 5 months ago

What does that have to do with the code tho

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[–] drwankingstein@lemmy.dbzer0.com 34 points 5 months ago (2 children)

saying 'no code' from rivals seems highly misleading, and I can't seem to see a hard citation for this, in fact, it very directly contradicts this same sentence from the article

He also said that unlike SerenityOS, Ladybird will “leverage the greater OSS ecosystem,” meaning that it will use other open source libraries for some features.

it would be better to say they aren't relying on libraries and features from rivals. not that they will use "no code" from them, good code is good code afterall

[–] Luci@lemmy.ca 27 points 5 months ago (6 children)

What I got was that there would be no Google or Mozilla specific code/libraries, but FOSS libraries for common media formats would be included so that the project can reach a wider audience.

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