They killed him cause he told them to love each other. That'll get you killed just about anywhere. Humans love to hate.
That said the air of 'I'm special' didn't help.
No...they killed him because he represented a risk to the standing power structure.
They strung him up next to common criminals to lower his status, to make his whole idea seem insignificant.
No comment on weather he was supernatural.
I don't think he did any magic tricks with the weather
I think he calmed a storm one time, but I might be thinking of Thor.
Am I praying to the wrong god to make it rain when I hit the casino?
Romans didn't kill him his own religion did, with special emphasis that he wasn't their messiah.
Rome specifically washed their hands of the whole incident since he didn't break any standing laws. They imprisoned him for the reason you called out and specifically didn't touch him for the same.
The two reasons I called out were why he was killed. There are even Roman records to the fact.
There are even Roman records to the fact.
… kiiiiiiiiinda
Best response.
It kinda feels like you’re pushing an anti-Semitic narrative here instead of trying to argue the history.
The Jewish people were not some minor cult. The story does go that the Jewish authorities did argue for Jesus to be executed, part of it definitely being because of his “king of the Jews” thing. Judaism as a religion and The Jewish people are not 1 and the same in context, Jesus famously was not anti-Roman and argued his teachings were of the mind.
The Romans were famous for incorporating local government structures and religions as long as you paid and served.
Yes according to the myth the Jewish Authorities ( again, integrated and part of the Roman governing of the area) pushed for him to be executed for claiming to be the king of the Jews (political) which would upset Roman rule.
Again, this is of course assuming you believe the myth that actually isn’t written about or recorded at all until a couple generations later.
There aren’t Roman records of the event until later, after the fact. From people who weren’t there, but heard about it from people who were or heard it from folks who were … etc.
Christianity was a minor Jewish cult at the time, and only really expanded due to Greek Egyptians latching onto it prior to Constantine.
The Jews in were major figures in the Roman Provence which is why they were able to kill someone who was troubling them.
I get that this comes off as anti-Jewish but it's really anti-religion. An ingroup killed an outgroup cause it was politically convenient; religion is just one more ingrouping.
As to the lack of contemporary sources you can thank both Constantine and Theodosius. This is why I upvoted your first comment.
When didi use the word Roman?
Yeah and the Romans were always 100% accurate in their historical accounts, right?
Non personal accounts probably. Roman editorialism was mostly personal, for everything else blame Theodosius the Arsonist.
air of ‘i’m special’
risk to the standing power structure
These two ideas are arguably very similar. Claiming religious or political standing is both claiming an air of uniqueness and a threat to the status quo, and to my understanding this guy was doing both. ☺️
And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, one girl sitting on her own in a small cafe in Rickmansworth suddenly realized what it was that had been going wrong all this time, and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place. This time it was right, it would work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything.
-- Douglas Adams, The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
(Immediately after she realized it, the Earth gets destroyed.)
let's maybe not push the propagandic idea that humans are inherently bad, humans are in fact inherently extremely friendly (to a fault) and the idea that the opposite is true is part of what's needed to restrain our inherent need to help others.
Any time a group of humans is placed in a difficult position they start working together, there's that famous example of a group of kids accidentally ending up basically recreating Lord of the flies except they just got along and eventually had pretty comfortable lives, because as it turns out working together makes things way easier!
They didn't barely kill him. He was dead for like a weekend. They killed the witches properly.
Except for the Sanderson sisters. They took a couple tries.
They didn’t barely kill him. He was dead for like a weekend. They killed the witches properly.
Sounds like a skill issue. If the witches were any good at witching, they wouldnt have died either.
To be fair, Jesus was a lich. That's a whole other power level
He was mostly dead. Not all dead.
I'M NOT DEAD YET!
The Salem trials came later. I wonder if there discussion was like Townsperson 1: "So this woman with the wart, should we just nail her to a couple pieces of wood"
Townsperson 2: "Nah man, remember the last guy we did that with. Didn't take"
Townsperson 1: "Riiiight. So, wood, nails, and a bonfire then?"
Townsperson 2: Yeah that should do it"
I mean....its not their fault male magic users are harder to kill.
It wasn't his followers that killed him though. His followers did however torture and kill women.
Ya but I'm pretty sure the witches' followers didn't kill the witches either. Obviously just needed more followers. Clearly, the predominant religion is the one with the most followers willing to kill competing dark arts users. It's basically politics.
It depends on which witches you are talking about; 800AD+ its probably persecution, prior to that it's probably Rome clearing out Human Sacrifice cults. It's one of the major reasons Rome was so hard on ancient Briton and why Christianity had such an easy time converting Scandinavia.
Many times it was to get property. If a landowner died and had no children his wife would inherit the land. If that woman were to die before remarrying and having children, then the lord of that area would get that land. If that woman were to be accused of being a witch, then that same Lord would preside over the trial and determine whether the woman was guilty of witchcraft. I think you can see a conflict of interest here.
Check the history of Luxembourg. It got so bad the Church had to step in. Now the church wasn't a great defender of women's rights, but this kind of thing got so bad even the church had to say "ok you're taking this too far."
But sometimes it was for petty reasons. Someone in town hates a woman for whatever then accusations of witchcraft were made. This is kinda anecdotal, but I got an ancestor that lived in Salem, Mass. and there was a witch trial simply because a woman got re-married to my ancestor too soon after her previous husband died.
Although the poster above made a goof by mentioning Jesus, the general sentiment of the whole witchcraft thing being about killing women for horrible (and sometimes petty) reasons seems right to me.
this is where i wish lemmy had r/askhistorians because i remember for a fact there’s some mandela effect here and culturally we are misremembering something key but as a non-historian i’d look like an idot trying to call it out
edit: ok i figured it out and my point is moot. i am remembering that the Salem witch trials in America did not involve burnings, but hangings. however the witch trials in Europe very much did involve burning.
sorry for the semi-useless comment haha
No worries I too miss AskHistorians. Reddit could have been more.
literally the modern burning of the library of alexandria is going on and no one* is talking about it
*ok probably not no one im just being overdramatic
Probably, but we don't mind. Most of us are refugees watching the burning, and mourning what could have been.
there’s just so much value to historians being accessible to the public. there’s a reason universities pay them tenure despite not bringing immediate material benefit to the local community or economy, and reddit seemingly magically allowed for a forum that was even more open and accessible than a university.
and now that’s being fucked over by IPOs and LLMs.
Yes, the penalty for being a witch was hanging. Unfortunately the test to prove you were a witch sometimes involved tying you up and throwing you into a lake to see if you float or sink, and if you float then they would hang you. Of course the situation resolved itself if you didn't float. No one ever floated.
Or putting you under a stone.
Giles Corey, one of the more famous Salem victims. His wife was tried for witchcraft, and while he stood against her, he got wrapped up in it, too. They placed large stones over his body, telling him if he confessed he would be given a clean death.
His last words are reported to be "More weight".
They killed him because he pissed off the State, not because magic tricks.
Jesus was killed because he angered the Pharisees (specifically the Priests) by defying their authority and teaching the new covenant. The Romans (aka "the state") were only invested insofar as it would prevent a revolt. Pontius Pilate found no fault in Christ and offered Barrabas instead (a convicted murderer) but the Pharisees would not relent and wanted Jesus crucified. Pilate famously washed his hands of the business because even he knew it was an injustice.
Theres a film about the book about it.
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