Can I just convert to Judaism tomorrow and get a free vacation to Israel? (lemmy.ml)

submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by vis4valentine@lemmy.ml to c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world

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I know Jewish people are granted some special right to visit the state of Israel, and some companies organize free tours for Jewish born or living outside.

But does that apply only for people ethnically Jewish that come from Jewish families? Or also applies to new converts to Judaism?

Like, not literally converting tomorrow and demand a free vacation to Israel, but like, converting and in a few years wait and see if they offer me a free vacation to the country to visit the most iconic places of Judaism?

How does that works?

edit: I'm a hispanic atheist with no Jewish family that I know of, and I'm not interested on joining any religion, this is just a hypothetical case.

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[-] TheAlbatross@lemmy.blahaj.zone 107 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Converting to Judaism isn't as simple as it is to convert to Christianity.

It will take years of study and effort.

That aside, the govt of Israel will not "offer" you a chance for a Birthright trip. You have to apply for it and demonstrate you meet the requirements. I don't see why you wouldn't qualify, but the Israeli govt is rather close minded about these things. (EDIT: Someone else in the thread has said Birthright Israel accepts converts explicitly, so you should be good here)

THAT aside, don't go to Israel, don't give them any money. What they're doing right now is absolutely monstrous and it's morally inexcusable to support them.

[-] db2@lemmy.world 36 points 5 months ago

Right now and at least the past 40 or more years...

[-] edgemaster72@lemmy.world 17 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

They used to do some fucked up stuff. They still do, but they used to too.

[-] DontAskAboutUpdog@lemmy.world -4 points 5 months ago

I remember the first time i heard that joke. I lauged so hard i fell of my dinosaur

[-] pingveno@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago

And to think, it's still funny all these millions of years later.

[-] dlpkl@lemmy.world 55 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Friendly reminder that Israel ~~sterilized~~ administered birth control shots without informed consent to Ethiopian Jewish women who were trying to invoke the Law of Return and migrate to Israel.

[-] Kellamity@sh.itjust.works 37 points 5 months ago

This just isnt true. I'm not saying this to defend Israel and their actions in Gaza - its just really important to not get swept up in falsehoods, particularly at a time when legitimate criticism of Israel is being portrayed as antisemitic.

There are allegations that Israel administered a birth control drug - which has to be readministered every three months - to Ethiopian immigrants without informed consent. The investigation into this was flawed, but there is literally no evidence to suggest that anyone was forced or coerced into taking this.

What does seem plausible and even likely based on the facts is that doctors often made little or no effort to overcome language and cultural barriers and make sure that consent was fully informed and patients were completely aware of the effects of the procedure.

This is definitely an issue in and of itself, and is a level of societal racism. But what it is not, is ideoligical forcible sterilization.

Further, when you say 'Ethiopian Jewish women tried to invoke the Law of Return' the implication is that Israel was really against Ethiopian immigration. In reality, the Israeli government worked with the US to actively enable this - in 1984 Israeli covert forces worked to evacuate the Beta Israel community from Sudan to Israel during the civil war there (this is known as Operation Moses).

Basically, there is so so much to legitimately criticise the Israeli government for right now. Repeating misinformation like this just straight up doesn't help.

[-] Akisamb@programming.dev 15 points 5 months ago

They gave them a birth control shot without properly informing them of what it was. Still scandalous, but not what you are saying.

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 6 points 5 months ago

https://thedispatch.com/article/assessing-claims-that-ethiopian-immigrants-to-israel-received-birth-control-shots-without-consent/

[-] dlpkl@lemmy.world -2 points 5 months ago

https://www.geneticsandsociety.org/biopolitical-times/israel-admits-targeting-ethiopian-jews-compulsory-contraception

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Yes, that's what the first article said, except it isn't calling birth control sterilization because that's, you know, bullshit.

[-] dlpkl@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

I corrected my comment. The article I posted was written by a medical anthropologist, not a conservative think tank.

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

If only that "think tank" had extensively sourced everything from third parties and didn't deliberately use misleading and propagandistic phrasing, like serious journalists do.

Israel is actively genociding Palestinians, today.

You don't need to make shit up about something that happened years ago.

[-] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 32 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

People aren't machines, if your conversion was genuine and you built up relationships in your local community you'd probably get a chance - but if you show up saying "LOL, I'm technically Jewish. Where's my free vacation" you'll probably not.

There's a surprising amount of freeish stuff out there if you're willing to work for it.

[-] PP_BOY_@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

Exactly right. You're not gonna get a free vacation into one of the highest-security ethnostates in the world off some vague "gotcha" clause

[-] DontAskAboutUpdog@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

It aint free if you work for it.

[-] Jakdracula@lemmy.world 29 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

You don’t have to be a full Jew, just Jew ish

[-] Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org 19 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Birthright Israel offers trips to converts too, as long as you are in the age limits.

The law of return also allows converts to obtain citizenship.

In both cases you would have to be a practicing member of the community and do all of the necessary steps to officially become a member.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

If Sienfeld, King of the Hill and Family Guy are accurate about this (sure they're just TV shows and two are cartoons, but for 3 different things to show the same specific shit there must be some truth), you can't just convert to Judaism overnight. There are things you have to actually do and they require study. Often years of it. It's not like Christianity where you can just say "I believe this now" and have them welcome you as one of their own faith.

So even if getting a trip was as easy as becoming Jewish, becoming Jewish isn't that easy.

[-] totallynotarobot@lemmy.world 13 points 5 months ago

Are you saying you can’t just declare Judaism the way you declare bankruptcy?

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 17 points 5 months ago

"No Micheal, you can't just say Judaism and be Jewish."

"I didn't say it. I declared it."

[+] imPastaSyndrome@lemm.ee -16 points 5 months ago

Christianity has study and shit too , bud

[-] Nibodhika@lemmy.world 13 points 5 months ago

Which church asks people to study? You can simply start going to a church and no one will bat an eye. I've met Christians who couldn't even read, and even the ones that can have a very limited interest in reading what they consider to be the most important book there is. As a general rule just as a casual reader I've read more of the bible than the average Christian, I definitely can't say the same about Jews since they point out that I didn't read it in Hebraic and usually know it better than I do.

[-] rambaroo@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Catholicism requires about a year of studying to convert or you won't be allowed to take sacraments. Although in reality no one is really checking and you could theoretically fake your way through it.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 2 points 5 months ago

It's not required tho.

[-] HandBash@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

That depends on who is gatekeeping. I don't think there is any christian nation-state offering a "right to return" but i would imagine they would have a litmus test too of they did.

[-] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 1 points 5 months ago

It does, but converting is basically the first step. You can simply just accept Jesus as your saviour, you will need to get baptised at some point and participate in communion, but that's it.

[-] Death_Equity@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

Catholics need communion, not Christians. Even baptism isn't required in Christianity, Catholicism does require it.

The only requirement is accepting Jesus as your savior. Everything else is merit badges that only deepen your involvement.

[-] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 0 points 5 months ago

Baptism is a requirement.

‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬:

Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

‭Mark‬ ‭16:16‬:

Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:21‬:

and this water symbolises baptism that now saves you also – not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience towards God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

So is communion

‭John‬ ‭6:53‭-‬56‬:

Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. [54] Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

While you can become a Christian and repentance is the most important step, baptism and communion cannot be neglected.

[-] JoBo@feddit.uk 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Conversion is a long process, made considerably easier since Israel came into existence but still not overnight. So no, not tomorrow. But yes, you could probably do it if you were determined enough, or had the right help: How 90 Peruvians became the latest Jewish settlers

[-] Jollyllama@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

The law of return does allow for converts to move to Israel. They do look into your conversion though and if it is a sham they'll decline.

[-] SmoothIsFast@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

It's not free though.

[-] Froyn@kbin.social 0 points 5 months ago

So like George Santos?

[-] skydivekingair@lemmy.world -1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

No, they don’t mean Jews religiously. They mean Jewish through heritage, similar to the way many countries do citizenship by birthright rather than birthplace (like the US does). In Hebrew law(?) the birthright is passed down by the mother as prior to genealogy that was a surefire way of proving your parent is who they say they are.

My information is secondhand and any corrections are welcome.

Edit: read below for more accurate information.

[-] SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml 19 points 5 months ago

No, it’s for all Jews.

In Judaism, there’s no proselytizing - they’re not actively seeking converts. A rabbi is supposed to reject a request for conversion three times before beginning the process. There’s a bit involved - you can find it online - but it involves time and effort and depending on your genitalia a bit of pain (basically just a pinprick even if you’re already good to go, as it were, because a medical circumcision isn’t considered to count as a religious one). Orthodox Jews don’t tend to recognize converts unless they’re also orthodox, but that doesn’t affect the Law of Return.

It’s just a lot of work for a “free” vacation. It’d be easier in the end to just travel over there, unless you’re looking for citizenship.

There are of course many Jewish atheists, but they’re definitely going to push back on that point for a convert.

Honestly, for the level of effort and given OP’s atheism, I’d just save up for a trip to Costa Rica and do jungle zip lines and hang out with sloths. The candles and the hats are nice, but there’s easier ways to tour the Middle East - and I’d include joining the Marines in that.

[-] Izzgo@kbin.social 9 points 5 months ago

there’s easier ways to tour the Middle East - and I’d include joining the Marines in that.

That gave me a nice chuckle, thanks.

[-] Deceptichum@kbin.social 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

So Judaism operates on the Beetlejuice rules?

[-] Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Ancestry yes, but converts are also eligible.

[-] z00s@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

birthright rather than birthplace like the US

I thought place was a criteria for the US, which is what was being claimed during the fake "birther" thing with Obama?

[-] testfactor@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

It's either or. But the Obama thing was mostly just racism.

His dad isn't an American citizen (Kenyan) and he has a couple of half brothers who aren't citizens (different mother, born in Kenya).

Obama was double fine, both because he had a US Citizen mother and because he was born in Hawaii.

The conspiracy theory at the time was that he was actually born in Kenya like his half brothers. The conspiracy mostly just ignored that his mom existed, since she died back in 1995, so she wasn't there to defend the point.

[-] Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

They didn't ignore his mother, they argued that she hadn't been in the US for enough time. For a birth abroad with one citizen parent, between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, the U.S. citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for 10 years prior to the person’s birth, at least five of which were after the age of 14. After 1986 it became 5 years / 2 years after 14.

She was 18 when she gave birth to Barack. He was born in Hawaii so it didn't matter.

What they really ignored is there was zero reason for her to lie and say he was born in Hawaii. Even if it wasn't automatic, obtaining citizenship for her child when she moved back home would have been paperwork, but not difficult. There is no downside to doing it that way unless her plan all along was for him to be the president. Makes no logical sense and a heck of a lot easier to just do the forms.

At one point some people tried to argue John McCain wasnt eligible either as he was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which also made no difference.

this post was submitted on 31 Jan 2024

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