this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2024
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[–] Skua@kbin.earth 30 points 1 week ago (4 children)

One thing that might help it feel less strange is realising that you already use a grammatically plural pronoun to refer to individuals all the time: the word "you". It's always "you are tall", not "you is tall", same as "we" or "they" instead of "he" or "she". This is because it was historically plural, and "thou" was the singular. Over time we started using the plural to be more polite, and then eventually always using it.

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 11 points 1 week ago (3 children)

"Thou is tall" sounds weird though.

you already use a grammatically plural pronoun to refer to individuals all the time: the word "you". It's always "you are tall",

This made my brain short circuit lol. Can't believe I never noticed.

[–] Semjaza@lemmynsfw.com 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

That's because "is" is the third person conjugation of Be, not the second. Of course it sounds weird.

"Thou are", and the actually correct "thou art" both feel much more natural.

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev -1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

But we're back to plural, they said thou is singular.

[–] Semjaza@lemmynsfw.com 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

The conjugation of Be, "is" is not used in the second person (you, be it singular or plural) any more than "am" is ("am" is first person singular form.) regardless of the plurality (or lack thereof) in the subject.

The correct Be conjugations for second person subjects are "art" (2nd, singular, archaic) and "are".

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 1 points 1 week ago (2 children)

So is thou/you plural or singular? I'm very confused. I'm not a grammar person lol. This conversation began because someone said thou is singular.

Thou is singular and you is plural. Thou art. You are.

[–] Semjaza@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Do you remember your conjugation tables from Spanish or French class?

English has them too, but the modern ones are much smaller than most (all?) other European languages.

Editted in:
Prn. | To be | note I am 1st person (the speaker) singular.
We are 1st person plural.
Thou art 2nd person (the one being spoken to) singular (archaic).
You are 2nd plural and singular.
(s)he /it is 3rd person (neither the speaker or spoken to) singular.
They are 3rd plural and singular

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I think because it's so small for English and because I'm a native speaker it's all just second nature and I don't really know the technicalities. Conjugating verbs in Spanish is one of my most frustrating areas of learning lol.

[–] Semjaza@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 1 week ago

Yeah, it's only really "Be" and "have" that have any conjugation variety in English, and then the old 3rd singular +s and past tense and participles.

Since most English speakers don't learn much grammar it can be tricky. A few lessons on English grammar would probably make learning a second language much easier.

[–] silasmariner@programming.dev 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yeah but that's because you see it in archaic contexts. How do you feel about 'thou art tall'?

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

But art sounds like are. Is art singular?

[–] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

From the dictionary: (archaic) second-person singular simple present indicative of be

So, yes?

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)
[–] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 week ago

To convey uncertainty, because the dictionary classification of the word was a bit of a mouthful, and I was only 90% certain that I was interpreting it correctly.

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

It's "thee is tall."

He, she, thee.

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 2 points 1 week ago

Ahhh, that makes so much more sense.

[–] njaard@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

No, that's incorrect.

It's "Thou are tall" or "Thou art tall"

Nominative   Oblique  Possessive 
Thou         Thee     Thy/Thine* 
I            Me       My/Mine*
He           Him      His
She          Her      Her/Hers**
You          You      Your/Yours**

* Used as an object (It is thine) or historically, when the following word started in the vowel (Thine eyes sparkle like diamonds, Mine ears ache)

** Used as an object (it is hers)

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

Yes I too, read the Wikipedia entry for thou/thee.

Are the Outlander writers just dumb or something then? Or is what you're referring to ("thou art") just a different context.

Because in Outlander, the quakers clearly use "thee is" and not "thou art/are".

Because they use it as the second person singular.

Minor spoilers for latest season of Outlander

Thee is a wolf

[–] Makeshift@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I’m joining in the “this blew my mind” sentiment and just want to say thanks for sharing this tidbit of info.

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

Thee has had thee mind blown?

[–] samus12345@lemm.ee 4 points 1 week ago

It only feels strange because of how it's been used previously in my lifetime, not from historical usage. But as you've shown, language changes over time, and not having a singular neutral pronoun has proven to be a big omission in English (since "they" has only traditionally been used that way in certain limited cases). If it was good enough for "you," it's good enough for "they!"