this post was submitted on 26 Oct 2023
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Linux Gaming

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[–] havokdj@lemmy.world 114 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'm just going to go ahead and say this now, do not expect most windows games to run better on Linux than windows. Typically the case is when you find a well optimized game that is CPU bound, or is natively vulkan. Anything else, expect comparable framerates.

[–] ReverseModule@discuss.tchncs.de 85 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I will disagree and that's why I made this video. Been benchmarking games for 3 years now, mostly on AMD systems. It went from about same performance, to slightly better, to this. 17% average improvement is nothing to laugh at. It's the difference between a 4090 and a 7900XTX on Windows. So people can literally save $1000 just by using Linux.

What you say, does mostly apply to Nvidia users though.

[–] circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org 66 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Not enough people running nvidia realize just how much nvidia does to make sure you stick to their proprietary software. That you can close most of the performance gap with FOSS on AMD is an amazing finding.

Unfortunately it won't convince many who haven't already seen the benefits of a more open system.

[–] ReverseModule@discuss.tchncs.de 17 points 1 year ago

Truer words have never been said.

[–] nogrub@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

yeah i have a work college that i got to use vim keybinds in most software but when i tell him that he could control his whole system like that if he switched to linux he dosen't like the idea because he isn't used to using linux

[–] Turun@feddit.de -1 points 1 year ago

Not enough people realize how much AMD does to make sure people stick to their proprietary software. Nvidia software that is.

A lack of ROCm support on consumer hardware is simply inexcusable. Nvidia makes a shit ton of money with the AI boom, because people like to work with stuff they already know. And it's infuriating, because Nvidia cards have way less VRAM.

[–] havokdj@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Man look, I've been using Linux as a daily driver for 18 years, people have been saying exactly what you're saying since before performance was even comparable.

You're not going to get 17% better performance on the GPU just because you're using another operating system, it's not going to happen unless you're running a Linux native version of the game. Often times, that is not even the case.

Performance can be a little bit better if the game is natively opengl or vulkan, but if it is directx (the vast majority of windows games) then it is going to be comparable at best in GPU-bound scenarios, I.E. most of the games people are playing on PC.

You can't just magically put more transistors in a GPU just because you are running a different OS. CPU bound games run better on Linux because of the god-tier scheduler, but a GPU is essentially a computer in itself, all drivers do is tell the GPU to take this information and translate it into something you see on a screen.

By the way, the Nvidia thing has been false for quite some time now. I primarily use AMD on Linux, but the only place you will run into issues with Nvidia is wayland, otherwise it works perfectly fine everywhere else.

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"works fine" is very different than "is equivalently optimized."

Valve has done a lot of work to get games to work well on the Steam Deck, and that likely translates to other AMD GPUs. So it makes total sense that Valve would optimize the Proton translation layer for DirectX calls to the AMD driver differently than the NVIDIA driver (or rather, in a way that AMD handles better). A big issue in GPU optimization is keeping it busy, so perhaps the AMD driver working with Valve's patches on the DirectX to Vulkan layer improve utilize m utilization. That could translate to a modest performance improvement even on well optimized games (perhaps 5-10%, probably not more than 20%).

I don't know if that's what's going on here, but it's a plausible explanation.

[–] havokdj@lemmy.world -4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I can see why you'd think that, but what you fail to understand is that valve is not the only one working on proton, and valve themselves did not even make DXVK. Those are free and open source efforts and valve even pays external devs to commit to that software. I'm telling you that DXVK itself is not going to give a boost to graphical performance because it literally cannot, those are extra instructions that your GPU has to perform in order to send out frames.

Directx to vulkan translation is exactly that, translation. It receives directx calls and translates them to vulkan. For one, it has overhead, two, if the game is optimized, it is already going to be running at max performance on windows, using DXVK is going to slow the GPU time down because it will have to perform more calculations. No scheduler will save you from that, not even the Linux one, because it isn't something that is handled by the scheduler.

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Two things:

  • I never said Valve built DXVK or even WINE, just that they have a vested interest to ensure it works well on their AMD-based hardware
  • I never mentioned anything about the scheduler or any Linux imtrinsics other than the AMD GPU kernel module

DirectX -> Vulkan isn't a direct translation since the APIs aren't 1:1, so there's going to be some tuning in how APIs are mapped, and the tuning can differ depending on the GPU driver you're using.

It's the same with processors, you can optimize a compiler to work better on AMD vs Intel or vice versa (look at Intel C++ compiler benchmarks for an example of that), even if they use the exact same set of instructions because the microarchitectures are optimized differently. This is because the way the instruction set gets mapped to the microarchitecture can impact performance significantly (something like 10% is possible, depending on the benchmark).

GPU drivers are complicated, and there are a lot of areas where the interaction between the driver, software, and system services can be optimized. AMD's drivers are open source, which helps with those optimization efforts. Then you throw in a big, well-funded, and motivated company like Valve funding development (both through salaries and donations) and you end up with AMD GPUs getting extra attention for things like DXVK.

So I would expect AMD on Linux to perform better vs NVIDIA on Linux when compared to AMD vs NVIDIA on Windows. As in, the performance difference on Linux vs Windows would be more favorable for AMD cards than NVIDIA ones because AMD on Linux gets more attention than NVIDIA on Linux. I don't expect the same for compute, since NVIDIA invests heavily in that space on Linux, so it's not an inherent advantage of the platform (e.g. the scheduler discussion), but a question of where optimization efforts are focused.

[–] ReverseModule@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't see an argument which disproves my results apart from you disbelief. But I like the Nvidia comment. I'll do a video of Linux vs Windows on my 3080M laptop. We'll see how true is that Nvidia works as well as AMD on Linux. :)

[–] havokdj@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Go right on ahead, I've done the tests myself already.

Keep in mind though that if you are using a laptop, nvidia tends to work better when paired with Intel vs amd for the sake of graphics offloading.

I don't think you understand how this works, I'm not trying to disprove anything, you are the one trying to prove something. You chose 10 very specific games to run these tests, some of them being heavily CPU bound, and state that you are receiving an increase in GPU performance when it is simply not the case. All of these games are also optimized for proton, which does not help your case.

Tell you what, why don't you give something like "Spec Ops: The Line" a test? Halo Infinite? 40k Darktide? Vermintide 2? Dying Light? Hell, infinite and darktide are very popular in the Linux gaming community, I was even one of the beta testers for darktide.

[–] ReverseModule@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

You say that like I'm afraid to do it. You're missing the point that these games don't have benchmarks lol. If you want I can do a gameplay comparison but don't tell me, the areas or movements are not the same. :)

Also these games couldn't be more diverse. I tested DXVK, VD3D and Vulkan (both on Linux and Windows) with these games. If you can find a more diverse benchmark please let me know, cause I haven't found one.

Also, I'm already doing benchmarks on my i7-10870H and 3080 laptop. Linux won't go above 80W, cause of the Nvidia Drivers (545 Beta btw) so the difference will be IMMENSE for Windows there.

[–] havokdj@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You don't need a specialized benchmark to do a benchmark, you can use a realtime rendered cutscene, you can do an average over several games. That's how they have been done for like a decade and a half at this point.

Also, I'm not referring specifically to mobile graphics nvidia, but nvidia altogether. Linux laptop gamers make up a very very small amount of total Linux gamers, it is an incredibly small niche of two already small niches, both being Linux and laptop gamers. Yes, of course if you have a limit to the total amount of power, it will lag behind.

I gave you a list of games, start there, my list is also diverse and includes all of those except for vulkan, which if you want, throw doom eternal in there, though as I have already stated vulkan will get a small increase on linux over windows in terms of GPU performance, so that's not really proving anything anyone doesn't already know.

If you want a fair comparison, limit it to 80 watts in windows as well. Remember though that power is NOT EVERYTHING when it comes to GPU performance. All of the games I detailed above are GPU bound games and will be a fair comparison. Just a heads up darktide may or may not have graphical glitches on your system if you are running amd (both operating systems, it is hardware related), I've worked with the devs to fix it in the past but it seems like recently people have been having issues with it again.

[–] ReverseModule@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I only have Doom Eternal and Vermintide 2 from the games you mentioned. I can do the opening sequences of those. Is that ok?

[–] havokdj@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Vermintide 2 would be fine but everyone already knows how eternal is going to work out, that is a mostly CPU game.

Edit: also halo infinite is free, and if I remember correctly it has a benchmark

[–] ReverseModule@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I know the multi is free, Does that have a Benchmark?

[–] havokdj@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Awesoem, I'll check it out then! :)

[–] Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago

CPU bound games run better on Linux because of the god-tier scheduler

This is awesome, I didnt know that!

[–] fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It sounds like some time in that 18 years, you solidified this impression, and are choosing to not recognize the advancements in Proton and drivers that have occurred post-Steam Deck.

I've been using Linux since before Xwindows existed, and I am open to OPs research. Just because we've used it longer, doesn't make either of us right without proof. OP supplied evidence. Prove them wrong.

[–] havokdj@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I've been using Linux since before Xwindows existed

Why are you blatantly lying like this? X came out seven years before the Linux kernel was even released. And even then, there wasn't a working system for the Linux kernel when it was released. Keep in mind I said DAILIED Linux for 18 years, I didn't say USED, I've been using Linux for 27 years now. I actually remember a time when Linux was not an operating system that people would use to play games on.

I'm using my time specifically in the community as an example to show that this is not the first time I have heard this. OP supplied evidence in ten very specific games here, there are over 12000 games on protondb that are "playable", not even verified. I have run across myself quite many games that run at half to three quarters the performance that it does on windows, and that is absolutely fine.

Telling people that using Linux will get you a "free performance boost as much as 17%" when it very likely will NOT, will create a lot more angst towards the Linux community than it already is. The elitists are already doing that for us, we don't need more of it.

We should be pushing people towards Linux for digital privacy+security and free software, not cherry picked performance boosts.

Yes, I very well recognize the black magic sourcery of proton and wine, but you are sitting here and trying to tell me that proton is somehow going to make your GPU somehow physically push more calculations per cycles just because it is running Linux. Not even giving me the "mesa drivers" spiel which is also BS, as performance is not the main area that the Foss drivers are better in.

Linux is not going to break the laws of physics buddy, I've already said what I said, boost in CPU bound games, little to no boost in GPU bound games. If you're seeing a boost, it's because you have a CPU bottleneck and you are getting it because of the scheduler.

[–] WhiteHawk@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

17% average improvement is nothing to laugh at. It’s the difference between a 4090 and a 7900XTX on Windows.

Just fyi, that isn't true, the difference is 20-30% on average, in most benchmarks at least

[–] Grass@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's comparable more often than not, but honestly even if it was 17% worse on average I would still stick to Linux and just build a better computer. Which is what I did before proton.

[–] havokdj@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago

No doubt and I'm the same way, I'm just trying to say that one shouldn't try to sell Linux solely based on "gaming performance" when it is definitely not the case most of the time.

Linux is not used like windows or macos at all, and new users will definitely be frustrated enough just learning to use the operating system. Believe me, I think it is awesome that we are finally getting another gaming revolution in the community (Linux gaming actually used to be pretty good before around 2010), but keep in mind that these efforts are for the community and steam deck users. Anyone who wants to have it too will ultimately have to join the community and learn the ropes.

[–] ADHDefy@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Honestly, if you use Proton-GE's FSR feature for games that don't offer built-in FSR/DLSS + GameMode, you can def beat Windows performance in some Windows-only games. I know it's kinda cheating, but it does net you higher FPS on the same graphics settings.

[–] havokdj@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

That's not really even cheating, there's windows utilities that attempt to do the same thing.

Gamemode puts the game at an extremely low niceness value, among other things, which will make the system allocate more resources toward it.