this post was submitted on 16 Oct 2023
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[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 54 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (16 children)

[GPT-4] is fed, like, a line of text from some source, but with the last word missing. It guesses what the last word might be, and then it gets told whether or not it got it right so it can adjust its internal math.

GPT-4 cannot alter its weights once it has been trained so this is just factually wrong.

“It had to build, in its internal wirings and all its software neurons, some understanding of what an egg is - In other words, to get the next word right, it had to become intelligent. It’s quite a thought. It started with nothing. We jammed huge oceans of text through it, and it just wired itself into intelligence, just by being trained to do this one stupid thing.”

LLMs are really cool and very useful, don't get me wrong. But people get excited by what they seem to do and lose sight of what they actually can do. They are not intelligent. They create text based on inputs. That is not what intelligence is, unless you have an extremely dismal view of intelligence that humans are text creation machines with no thoughts, no feelings, no desires, no ability to plan... basically, no internal world at all.

An LLM is an algorithm, not an intelligence.

[–] mitchell@lemmy.ca 16 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Adam Something uploaded a video starting with the definition of intelligence itself, and then explains how something that “acts” intelligent doesn’t mean it “is” intelligent.

[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 9 points 10 months ago (9 children)

I think even "intelligence" here is a stretch. In a very narrow sense, it is intelligent: it creates text, simulates conversations, answers questions. But that is not what intelligence is (and it is all LLMs can do).

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[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 15 points 10 months ago (6 children)

The author is an imbecile if they haven't been able to break GPT. It took me less than one day of tooling around with it before I got it to say something which outed it as having no understanding of what we were discussing.

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[–] SirGolan@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

GPT-4 cannot alter its weights once it has been trained so this is just factually wrong.

The bit you quoted is referring to training.

They are not intelligent. They create text based on inputs. That is not what intelligence is, unless you have an extremely dismal view of intelligence that humans are text creation machines with no thoughts, no feelings, no desires, no ability to plan... basically, no internal world at all.

Recent papers say otherwise.

The conclusion the author of that article comes to (LLMs can understand animal language) is.. problematic at the very least. I don't know how they expect that to happen.

[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 1 points 10 months ago (13 children)

In what sense does your link say otherwise? Is a world model the same thing as intelligence?

[–] SirGolan@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

In the end of the bit I quoted you say: "basically no world at all." But also, can you define what intelligence is? Are you sure it isn't whatever LLMs are doing under the hood, deep in hidden layers? I guess having a world model is more akin to understanding than intelligence, but I don't think we have a great definition of either.

Edit to add: More... papers...

[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

But also, can you define what intelligence is?

From the Encyclopedia Britannica:

Human intelligence is a mental quality that consists of the abilities to learn from experience, adapt to new situations, understand and handle abstract concepts, and use knowledge to manipulate one’s environment.

In no sense do LLMs do any of these except, perhaps, "understand and handle abstract concepts." But since they themselves have no understanding of the concepts, and merely generate text that can simulate understanding, I would call that a stretch.

Are you sure it isn’t whatever LLMs are doing under the hood, deep in hidden layers?

Yes. LLMs are not magic, they are math, and we understand how they work. Deep under the hood, they are manipulating mathematical vectors that in no way are connected representationally to words. In the end, the result of that math is reapplied to a linguistic model and the result is speech. It is an algorithm, not an intelligence.

I'm not really interested in papers that either don't understand LLMs or play word games with intelligence (shockingly, solipsism is an easy point of view to believe if you just ignore all evidence). For every one of these, you can find a dozen that correctly describe ChatGPT and its limitations. Again, including ChatGPT itself. Why not believe those instead of cherry-pick articles that gratify your ego?

[–] SirGolan@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (25 children)

I’m not really interested in papers that either don’t understand LLMs or play word games with intelligence

I mean, my first paper was from Max Tegmark. My second paper was from Microsoft. You are discounting a well known expert in the field and one of the leading companies working on AI as not understanding LLMs.

Human intelligence is a mental quality that consists of the abilities to learn from experience, adapt to new situations, understand and handle abstract concepts, and use knowledge to manipulate one’s environment.

I note that's the definition for "human intelligence." But either way, sure, LLMs alone can't learn from experience (after training and between multiple separate contexts), and they can't manipulate their environment. BabyAGI, AgentGPT, and similar things can certainly manipulate their environment using LLMs and learn from experience. LLMs by themselves can totally adapt to new situations. The paper from Microsoft discusses that. However, for sure, they don't learn the way people do, and we aren't currently able to modify their weights after they've been trained (well without a lot of hardware). They can certainly do in-context learning.

Yes. LLMs are not magic, they are math, and we understand how they work. Deep under the hood, they are manipulating mathematical vectors that in no way are connected representationally to words. In the end, the result of that math is reapplied to a linguistic model and the result is speech. It is an algorithm, not an intelligence.

We understand how they work? From the Wikipedia page on LLMs:

Large language models by themselves are "black boxes", and it is not clear how they can perform linguistic tasks. There are several methods for understanding how LLM work.

It goes on to mention a couple things people are trying to do, but only with small LLMs so far.

Here's a quote from Anthropic, another leader in AI:

We understand the math of the trained network exactly – each neuron in a neural network performs simple arithmetic – but we don't understand why those mathematical operations result in the behaviors we see.

They're working on trying to understand LLMs, but aren't there yet. So, if you understand how they do what they do, then please let us know! It'd be really helpful to make sure we can better align them.

they are manipulating mathematical vectors that in no way are connected representationally to words

Is this not what word/sentence vectors are? Mathematical vectors that represent concepts that can then be linked to words/sentences?

Anyway, I think time will tell here. Let's see where we are in a couple years. :)

I’m not really interested in papers that either don’t understand LLMs or play word games with intelligence

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[–] notenoughbutter@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

are you not an algorithm?

perfected over thousands of years?

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[–] narwhal@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

While whether LLMs are intelligent or not is still hotly debated. I think the author's thoughts are very interesting.

This is crazy to me. You can read in a stream of meaningless numbers (tokens) and incidentally build a reasonably accurate model of the real things those tokens represent.

The implications are vast. We may be able to translate between languages that have never had a “Rosetta Stone”. Any animals that have a true language could have it decoded. And while an LLM that’s gotten an 8 year old’s understanding of balancing assorted items isn’t that useful, an LLM that’s got a baby whale’s grasp on whale language would be revolutionary.

[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 8 points 10 months ago (5 children)

LLMs can't do any of those things though...

If no one teaches them how to speak a dead language, they won't be able to translate it. LLMs require a vast corpus of language data to train on and, for bilingual translations, an actual Rosetta stone (usually the same work appearing in multiple languages).

This problem is obviously exacerbated quite a bit with animals, who, definitionally, speak no human language and have very different cognitive structures to humans. It is entirely unclear if their communications can even be called language at all. LLMs are not magic and cannot render into human speech something that was never speech to begin with.

The whole article is just sensationalism that doesn't begin to understand what LLMs are or what they're capable of.

[–] bouh@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

They are making sense of a language without a rosetta stone. The English llm talk is learned from English.

Now the corpus is a big work to do. But still.

[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

No, they learn English (or any other language) from humans. Translation requires a Rosetta Stone and LLMs are still much worse at such tasks than dedicated translation programs.

Edit: I guess if you are suggesting that the LLM could become an LLM of the dead language and communicate only in said dead language, that is indeed possible. Since users would need to speak that dead language to communicate with it though I don’t understand the utility of such a thing (and is certainly not what the author meant anyway).

[–] narwhal@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

What about preserving languages that are close to extinct, but still have language data available? Can LLMs help in this case?

[–] ImpossibilityBox@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Preservation only but not likely any better than a linguistic historian.

But it gets tricky because LLMs only function on HUGE sets of data. LLMs are nothing more than complicated probability engines. Give it the question "What color is the sky?" and the math extracted from the massive databases that it has says the highest probability answer is "Blue". It doesn't actually KNOW the answer it just knows the probabilities of different words.

Without large amounts of data on the dying language current gen LLM's won't be accurate or able to generate reliable answers. Shoot... LLMs can barely generate reliable answers with the massive datasets they currently have.

I strongly recommend anyone even remotely interested in LLMs to read this interactive article:

https://ig.ft.com/generative-ai/

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[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 1 points 10 months ago

Yeah, that would be a good usage of an LLM!

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[–] h3ndrik@feddit.de 4 points 10 months ago
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