You need to stop thinking laws are inviolable writ handed down from God. We're all playing a game of shared make believe where the rules are only strong as the collective will to enforce them. That will doesn't appear to be sufficient so he can likely do what he wants.
this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2024
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This is the answer. Clear, concise, and correct,
Mafia and Goverment are the same thing at different scales, social order established from a central unit that enforces their will via violence funded by protection money/taxes Just as "cults" eventually become religion at a critical mass, then your fringe beliefs become legitimate church doctrine.
All the rules of the world are made up and only apply if enough people say and act as they apply. Justice is a point of view, not a inherent truth.
Oh good, finally someone I can talk with about metaphysics!
Bruh it won't matter.
Right? Who is gonna stop him from doing whatever the fuck he wants?
Somebody with better aim. I very much doubt we've seen the last attempt on his life. Groups on all sides are inching closer and closer to extremist acts lately, and don't show any signs of slowing down. We're in for chaos now.
I very much doubt we've seen the last attempt on his life.
And it's just as likely to come from a disillusioned historically republican as from someone more to the left.
nice username
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He can obviously do whatever the fuck he wants. This unfortunately isn't even a reasonable question to be asking at this point.
I dont think he needs to pardon himself.
He cannot pardon himself anyways for state crimes.
But what will happen is the judge would give a slap on the wrist sentence like a fine and call it a day.
Because the alternative is the judge giving a prison sentence and then the president goes "The NY Courts have made their decision, now let them enforce it" essentially creating a State vs Federal government political crisis.
Spoilers, the Federal government wins.
What if NY gonna do, send agents to somehow get past the SS to arrest the president?
If that was even attempted, the president would invoke insurrection act and arrest the governor/judge/ whoever gave the order for the arrest and flip the narrative, claiming the state officials are attempting a coup.
Not only did we squarely place ourselves on the path of economic/social decline for the foreseeable future, but we also just guaranteed that Trump will not be held accountable for his crimes.
We have utterly failed as citizens in a democratic society.
Buckle up. It gets much, much worse from here.
Trump and his party are nazis. Nazis suck because they bring the law of the jungle into civilization.
The law of civilization is cooperation.
The law of the jungle is, can I physically do it.
Republicans basically exist to shout, burn their own house down (also yours), and celebrate. They're going to burn the checks and balances.
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It's legally unclear if he's able to pardon himself for state crimes. He's the president of the United States, not the president of New York.
But I hope he tries to pardon himself for anything, just so we can get this before the Supreme Court, because I think they would side with him but I sure want to see it play out. In reality he's in such bad health and so old that I think he's probably going to die before he would face any prison time, so the best we can hope for is that the Supreme Court makes greater fools of themselves, or somehow miraculously surprises us and does the right thing, which I don't expect but you know it's theoretically possible.
The Constitutional text is very broad:
The President ... shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
So it looks rather absolute, for Fedral crimes. However, the real situation is complicated. This is just one clause in the Constitution, while the President is supposed to be bound by all of it. So, presumably, he can't exercise his pardon power in a way that violates something else in the Constitution. If you go deeper into the Federalist papers, it's quite clear that the Founders held that no man should be his own judge, and a self-pardon effectively does just that.
Here is a good write-up, although I do note it was written before the Supreme Court put their thumb on the scale and said he could do whatever the hell he wanted, as long as he doesn't get impeached for it:
https://protectdemocracy.org/work/the-presidential-pardon-power-explained/
I expect him to do it anyway. It will be challenged, but courts will reject it due to "lack of standing" and sidestep the messy business of having to tell the King he went too far.
Basically the only answer that takes the question seriously and brings facts to the table instead of an opinion.
No president has tried it before. Whether he can get away with pardoning himself has yet to be seen. For him not to get away with it would require someone to bring some sort of court case challenging it. And to bring a case, they have to have "standing." (That is to say, they have to have some credible justification why the self-pardoning action the president took wronged the petitioner in some way.) Which would probably require some legal argument that has never been made before.
I'm guessing Trump probably could get away with it, but given that no president has tried this, we'll just have to see for sure.
For federal stuff, yes ... probably, it's never been tested, but the current SCOTUS won't stop him.
Not for state crimes. Like the 34 felony counts in NY. But enforcement of any sentence (probably financial) is unclear. Also unprecedented.
I know nothing about anything related to the USA but I predict that Trump will not pay anything
I'd like to see a Constitutional Crisis, please
Yes, because he can do anything he wants and just declare legal.
There is no punishment for this supervillain. His cult makes sure of that.
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When he controls the Supreme Court... yes. He can pardon anyone for anything.
Prepare to see everyone involved in the most blatant act of open tyranny since the Civil War pardoned as soon as he takes office.
Yup. The Confederacy won this time. Prepare yourself for a bleak future.
Not state level offenses, only federal crimes, at least as the law stands now.
he doesn't need to since he already has absolute legal immunity according to the Supreme Court.
The president is now absolutely immune from all legal prosecution as long as it pertains to a "official duty".
The constitution is vague enough about official presidential duties that the official duties of the president can literally be anything.
Trump, and future presidents, are functionally immune from any legal consequences for any actions they take.
At least certain courts may interpret "official duty" differently...
doesn't really matter while the Supreme Court has a conservative majority, unfortunately.
Yup. As long as the Supreme Court is controlled by an ultra-conservative majority it's game over. They ultimately decide America's trajectory. And this election basically cemented that majority for the rest of our lives.
We just placed ourselves on the worst timeline.
definitely sucks right now, but this could spur Supreme Court reform or election reform, Trump could get convicted or impeached on one of the many cases he has coming up, he could die, he could fully go dementia, you'd have Vance, but he does not have the same selfish appeal that dumps does.
The US might be lost, but I doubt it.
I don't think this is the worst timeline. there are way worse timelines.
in one timeline that Russian sergeant or whatever didn't stop his commanding submarine officer from shooting a nuke in retaliation from a false radar reading and starting World War III to 50 years ago.
and then another Russian co-pilot didn't stop his co-pilot from shooting a nuke in retaliation from a false radar reading The captured some geese.
I mean that's two times we got pretty big reprieves in this timeline.
definitely sucks right now, but this could spur Supreme Court reform or election reform
Even under the best circumstances reforming the SC would be extremely unlikely because it would require a super majority. Same with election reform. Our government, in its entirety, will now be run by extremists who literally ran on deconstructing our government and replacing it with something in their image. The way our government has worked our entire lives is likely over.
Trump could get convicted or impeached on one of the many cases he has coming up
Trump is effectively king now. SC made him immune to any and all prosecution while president. Laws only work if the will of the people make them work. The majority of Americans just crowned a king. They aren't going to make those laws work. You will not see justice for Trump's crimes now. That possibility is gone.
he could die, he could fully go dementia,
Doesn't matter. He will be replaced and nothing about this timeline will change.
I don’t think this is the worst timeline. there are way worse timelines.
I mean, obviously. But considering the two timelines we had an option to be on, we chose the worst. And it's going to be very, very bad for average Americans.
"Even under the best circumstances reforming the SC would be extremely unlikely"
No, under the best circumstances it would be extremely likely.
Roberts, Thomas et al would keel over from heart attacks, Trump would have an attack of conscience and elect compassionate, wise judges.
or Hakeem Jeffr ies is persuasive than Trump and everyone commits to Court reform.
"now be run by extremists who literally ran on deconstructing our government and replacing it with something in their image."
they'll certainly try.
there's just too much historical evidence going against your theory of defeatist inevitability/futility.
"The way our government has worked our entire lives is likely over."
this has happened uncountable times throughout just US history, but especially recently when the president was afforded absolutely legal immunity.
I'd say that decision was more ultimately significant than Trump being elected.
"SC made him immune to any and all prosecution while president"
many of dumps past, current and upcoming cases definitively do not have to do with his presidency and occurred outside of his presidency completely.
"Laws only work if the will of the people make them work."
not really. Trump didn't get fined $100 million and lose two court cases solely because of the will of the people.
he went to court because of the legal system, and he lost those legal battles three times recently.
"The majority of Americans just crowned a king."
a chubsy jester, but sure.
"You will not see justice for Trump's crimes now. That possibility is gone."
already seen it a few times, probably going to see it again.
"Doesn't matter. He will be replaced and nothing about this timeline will change."
this is ridiculous and has zero evidence to support it.
dumps is the zealot catalyst here, the person in the seat pretending to fellate and stroke microphones is very important.
If you don't understand that, then your entire realistic perspective is foundationally flawed.
"I mean, obviously."
that this is not the worst timeline was obvious to me.
you claimed the literal opposite statement, that this was in fact the worst timeline, in the previous comment.
"But considering the two timelines we had an option to be on..."
you believe in timelines, but you believe there are only two at any specific moment?
bullet 2 inches left
Hilary doesn't steal Sanders' nomination.
5/4 decisions go four-five.
expand your mind.
"it's going to be very, very bad for average Americans."
oh yeah. almost all Americans. but you know they voted for it so...
blocking the bike path for everyone else, too.
Roberts, Thomas et al would keel over from heart attacks, Trump would have an attack of conscience and elect compassionate, wise judges.
I was talking about best case scenarios in reality, not fantasy.
there’s just too much historical evidence going against your theory of defeatist inevitability/futility
Such as?
many of dumps past, current and upcoming cases definitively do not have to do with his presidency and occurred outside of his presidency completely.
Do you honestly think that matters now? Everything we've seen up to this point suggests that Trump will not be held accountable for his crimes and that was BEFORE being crowned king. He will not be held accountable for any of his crimes. You can take me to the bank on that one.
this has happened uncountable times throughout just US history
What we are experiencing now is entirely unprecedented in U.S. history.
not really. Trump didn’t get fined $100 million and lose two court cases solely because of the will of the people.
Has he, thus far, suffered the repercussions of these cases?
already seen it a few times
Being convicted of a crime is not justice if one does not end up suffering repercussions along with those convictions.
this is ridiculous and has zero evidence to support it.
If Trump dies or becomes incapacitated, he is replaced by JD Vance and business as usual resumes. Nothing changes. GOP still calling the shots. Trump is a useful idiot. Nothing more. His presence doesn't matter now that he's completed his primary objective, which was to get the GOP back in power.
that this is not the worst timeline was obvious to me.
It is the worst timeline of the two that were available to us. I'm not entertaining timelines in which aliens invade or Big Foot runs for governor. I was talking about the two realistic timelines diverging because of the 2024 election. I didn't think I needed to specify, but apparently I did for the contrarians out there.
you believe in timelines, but you believe there are only two at any specific moment?
Let it go. Being an edgelord isn't necessary here.
oh yeah. almost all Americans. but you know they voted for it so…
Here is where we agree. 2016 could be chalked up to people being desperate for change and choosing to gamble on an unknown. Although to anyone that bothered to know anything about Donald Trump, he wasn't an unknown and we knew it would be an awful mistake. And he didn't win the popular vote, so he was forced on us by a minority. However, in 2024, we gleefully placed him back in power with a majority. This is squarely on Americans and we absolutely deserve the suffering that's coming. People in other countries that will be affected by this don't though.
The good news is that no one is hurt more by conservative policy than poor, rural conservatives. But I'm sure they'll find someone else to blame once the real suffering sets in. They always do.
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Theoretically, probably not, practically, and in real life, most probably definitely yes.
Dude, the guy is going to pardon everything and anyone. He's going to make the justice a complete joke.
Just like he did in his first term.
Well, he pardoned the people he liked that kissed his ass.
He can't pardon himself of state charges, only federal, at least for now.
Yes. Constitutionally, the threat of impeachment is supposed to prevent that.
I don't think so.
But if it's like any other norm-breaking violation we've seen him make, he will do it anyway, there will be legal challenges, they will ultimately be fruitless, he will suffer no consequences, and everyone will go along with it.
yes
Don't know, but we're gonna find out. Exciting times. Oh, and get ready to pay 3x as much for your internet access, and to have all torrent sites nuked from orbit.
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