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But habits are hard to break. After weeks of ignoring her feed, Ramona logged back on to Facebook. She missed the sense of community she had found in QAnon forums — the people, not the beliefs — and wanted to reconnect.... But the Facebook group was gone, purged by Facebook
Deplatforming works. It's true they'll go somewhere else, but they'll lose lots of people every time.
Conspiracy theories are older than the republic. But experts say it would be wrong to dismiss believers as simply stupid or deranged.
That's right. You have to dismiss them as stupid and deranged. For real though, the article makes the point that it's more than stupidity, it's a fear of what people can't control that turns them to conspiracies.
But why do they feel so out of control? Why do they not understand how anything works?
Is it possible that millions of people who lack the critical evaluation skills to determine when they're being scammed are victims of malicious grifters instead of just being people who are to be dismissed? And is it possible that lacking intellectual and cognitive skills is a disability and we should approach disability with empathy?
When you relegate people to the "stupid" and "deranged" categories, you dismiss them as people capable of learning skills (even if they haven't already for skills that are considered "basic") or possessing any other valuable skill that contributes. Dismissing them also shifts the responsibility from the people who are trying to take their money and radicalize them for their own ideological purposes.
The people trying to exploit others are the ones we should be condemning.
I really like how you've put this. You are completely right.
Thanks for understanding and being willing to entertain a different perspective! I'm glad I could help.
Whenever I catch myself wanting to call someone or their actions stupid, I consider whether telling a 5 year old child that they're stupid has ever helped them learn (good) lessons, and whether calling them stupid is a better teaching strategy than rewarding positive behavior. Research suggests that killing someone's self esteem isn't great for learning, especially pro-social behaviors, so it's probably also not a great first choice for whatever situation I've run into.
They feel out of control because they ARE being exploited by systems that are designed to obscure the fact. They don't understand how anything works, because those systems have replaced their education with propaganda.
Big time. Try opening a publicly funded law school, teaching the rulebook to the plebs, see the power structures try to jam it up, see if local corporate media doesn't publish constant articles about how much money it will cost and constant op-eds like "does [name of local area] really need more lawyers?," while their parent corporations and advertisers are represented in all things by lawyers at firms with 1,000 attorneys that each make in an hour what most working people make in a week. I'm telling y'all, it's sabotage.
"why do so many people believe in conspiracies"
"Well, to understand that, you have let me tell you about how The System is designed to replace education with propaganda."
Problem is that lots of seemingly regular Americans believe in some conspiracy theories to a greater or lesser extent. Having spent significant time living on both the US and Europe, I'm pretty shocked how many Americans always seem to think that someone is "out to get them." If it's not some random person, it's a criminal, it's the government, it's the school board, it's the gays. Anyone, really. It's tiresome.
Edit (case in point): https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/suspect-fathers-decapitation-went-rails-college-knew-say-rcna136647
well, the vietnam war was started from a conspiracy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident
and the iraq war:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
there was a plan to stage a false flag attack by cuba, and start a war: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
(JFK said no... but his assassin was a lone wolf)
the Tuskegee experiment killed about 100 people, denying them access to syphilis treatment: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
see also unethical human experimentation
the NSA was illegally spying on all Americans and the entire world illegally... probably still are...
the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act of 2006, made it legally "terrorism" to basically do any kind of animal rights activism...
....
ill give you that "a secret cabal of satanic pedophile cannibal ultra-wealthy people" is a pretty sill idea...
but yeah, im sure there's never been any other conspiracies.
....
here's a programmer, who worked for a voting machine company, testifying about when he was asked to write a program to rig elections: https://youtu.be/5y48iHK3RP4?si=tGIVNV4WXgmaaFgh
(i know trump lost fair and square... but there's a lot of other elections)
when covid first started spreading, there was a conspiracy in China to cover it up... i first learned about it from a conspiracy forum because a doctor leaked that info (he later died from covid)
there are a shit load of conspiracies all the time... it's basic human nature, really...
but you can't figure it out from clues in taylor swift's dance routine or whatever the fuck the q-tips are going in about...
if anything, Qanon was a real conspiracy, but just to control conspiracy theorists while making them look dumb.
also, the term "conspiracy theorist" was invented by the CIA to, once again, make them look dumb... but it doesn't even make sense, (almost) nobody has a job making up conspiracies... and it's not a theory without evidence, it's a hypothesis at best (and even then it's probably a very very uneducated guess)
🇺🇸🏈💸☕️
tl;dr there's a lot of real conspiracies...
p.s. the ultra-rich conspiracies are actually just about stealing and hiding more money: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers
oh, groups like Scientology actually do gang stalking... although it's usually just schizophrenic people thinking it's happening, sometimes people are out to get you...
relevant Dead Kennedy's song: https://youtu.be/kpoRMKXVkmE?si=vsUGbi9VkfghZd6U
Another one nobody really talks about is the whole "UFO coverup conspiracy" which isn't a conspiracy to cover up UFOs, but to hide military operations:
The classic case, well-known to conspiracy aficionados, is Paul Bennewitz, a successful electronics entrepreneur in New Mexico. In 1979, Bennewitz started seeing strange lights in the sky, and picking up weird transmissions on his amateur equipment. The fact that he lived just across the road from Kirtland air force base should have set alarm bells ringing, but Bennewitz was convinced these phenomena were of extraterrestrial origin. Being a good patriot, he contacted the Air Force, who realised that, far from eavesdropping on ET, Bennewitz was inadvertently eavesdropping on them.
Instead of making him stop, though, Doty and other officers told Bennewitz they were interested in his findings. That encouraged Bennewitz to dig deeper. Within a few years, he was interpreting alien languages, spotting crashed alien craft in the hills from his plane (he was an amateur pilot), and sounding the alert for a full-scale invasion. All the time, the investigators were surveilling him surveilling them. They gave Bennewitz computer software that "interpreted" the signals, and even dumped fake props for him to discover. The mania took over Bennewitz's life. In 1988, his family checked him into a psychiatric facility.
Paul Bennewitz died in that facility, still paranoid. Our government broke that man, a veteran, with a conspiracy.
It makes it hard for me to enjoy the X Files knowing all the suffering caused by its origin.
in defense of air force, this was pretty funny
(and also rather simple and self-sustaining way of diverting attention away from then top-secret projects that resulted in wonders of engineering like B-2 or F-117)
Funny that they ruined a man's life?
if he wasn't chasing UFOs, he'd be going after cryptids or something
damn, they gas lighted him...
im still with David Grusch and believe there's been real ufo encounters...
but it doesn't surprise me they'd use the public interest in that another way....
They definitely gaslit the dude, for the greater good of America, I suppose; I'm sure one could make the case that the success and therefore the secrecy of America's stealth and space programs were essential to bringing about the present world order, in which America is the lone superpower, for better or worse.
I think there are real cases in which various visual, optical, radio, or computer phenomena, have been misinterpreted by observers in good faith, who have reconciled what they could not explain with fantasies.
Or do you mean that, despite official statements to the contrary and lack of available evidence, in fact actual extraterrestrials have traveled to the earth and their presence verified and knowledge held in secret from the general public?
in which America is the lone superpower, for better or worse.
for worse... but i'd argue that China and the EU are superpowers...
Or do you mean that, despite official statements to the contrary and lack of available evidence, in fact actual extraterrestrials have traveled to the earth and their presence verified and knowledge held in secret from the general public
although your premises are incorrect, yes to the conclusion.
i'd argue that Grusch's claims constitute an official statement, and evidence... given his clearances and official position in the All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO)
... as well as the navy releasing video of the tictac ufo...
...
i mean, there's a longer list i could come up with. one important thing in the old untrustworthy first hand evidence, is consistency... certain shapes of craft and descriptions of things keep repeating themselves throughout history.
..
it's hard to approach the topic with an open mind, given the absolute fuck-ton of bullshit, flim-flam, scams, and crazy people surrounding it. i'm very lucky in that i was a first hand witness to the "1994 michigan ufo event", so i always knew there was something alien visiting us... just never what the fuck else that meant.
there's a really good episode of Unsolved Mysteries on it: https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/unsolved-mysteries-something-in-the-sky
And that was very widely witnessed, as well as tracked by radar...
“I don’t believe for a minute that it was any kind of alien structure; I think there is a fairly strong earthly explanation for what occurred,” says Leo Grenier, director of the National Weather Service in Muskegon. ...
Grenier of the National Weather Service believes the Federal Aviation Administration knows what happened that night but isn’t saying.
“If any aircraft are within a given area, then the FAA has to know what’s going on in that area. But most of the time, they won’t acknowledge anything, not even to us,” he says.
“I think I know what it was, but I’m not going to tell you. Once I retire from the National Weather Service, I might tell somebody.”
Any more about what this guy thinks it was in Michigan?
First time I saw the tic tac video, it looked to me like glare that I've seen before on a PTZ camera inside a clear dome aka a speed dome camera, and I found credible the many who say that's exactly what it is just from reflected infrared light. The voices, which I later learned are fake, are what made me think "nah, it couldn't be an artifact, the pilots would recognize it."
no idea on Leo Grenier, but the actual radar operator went on to track crafts over the lake for hours... after he retired he talked a lot more about it (and that it's definitely aliens)
as to the tic tac video, glad you set me up for this: Yeah the pilot of the plane that filmed that, was one of three people who gave testimony to congress (along with David Grusch). The whole congressional hearing is tedious to watch, but well worth it.
That pilot goes into great detail about how he had multiple instruments tracking the tictac, other planes were flying with him, how extensively he's educated on that equipment, and how exactly he's sure that it's not some camera glitch.
but you should definitely watch the entire, unedited congressional hearing on UAPs... i watched a lot of coverage about it, but it all misses a lot of important things. Still the members of congress talk too much about themselves, etc... but you should see the whole thing.
And as much as i dislike Joe Rogan lately, his interview with Grusch is pretty good; he lets Grusch talk for most of the time.
Found one more quote from Grenier:
“Leo Grenier, director of Muskegon’s National Weather Service office, says he knows what happened – but he won’t tell. “There wasn’t any UFO,” Grenier said. “There’s an earthly explanation but I’m not going to talk about it.” The reason, Grenier said, is national security. “I was in the Navy for 20 years. I know a lot of Navy operations and a good bit (about) Navy equipment. I checked with some retired electronic technicians I know, and they confirmed what I thought.”
lol... no, one guy who wasn't there saying some vague coverup language (i know what it is, but won't tell you, but it's totally not ufo)
no that doesn't discount hundreds of eye witnesses across hundreds of miles, and the actual guy operating the radar:
https://wwmt.com/news/local/retired-meteorologist-shares-his-account-of-1994-west-michigan-ufo-sightings
it makes zero sense to keep quoting a guy who wasn't there, and who says "i know but wont tell you till i retire"
and btw, no current comments from Grenier...
also, i was there... and i know what i saw!
I'm not doubting what you saw. I'm just wondering what that Grenier guy thinks you saw. He seems to say he has a good idea of what it is. He could be a total nutter but I'd still like to know what he thinks. Hasn't some podcaster tracked him down?
And are there any photos? I couldn't seem to find any.
you should watch the episode...
no pictures that i know of...
1994 was still film cameras and not very good at night photography...
i don't think he's a nutter, i think he's lying...
i'd say it's more about the want of feeling special and/or in control, not exactly about fear
there's an excellent Dan Olson video on this topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfhYyTuT44
Got a nice long ride tomorrow for the rest of this video. Very enjoyable listening.
In my experience it seems more effective to counter conspiracies with laughter and mockery than dismantle it. Which may sound strange since it sounds intuitive to counter a falsehood with truth or reason.... But disproving takes far more effort than the original conspiracy theory, and that's how these things get out of control. But laughing it off, mockery, and general comedy takes less time and still gets the message across to bystanders.
On the flip-side I do agree doing it wrong can send them deeper into the hole because at its core it's about a sense of community, and everyone has issues with ego and self-esteem clouding better judgment. It's just the circumstances these people are in, well, it makes them far more vulnerable to grifters preying on their ignorance, lack of time, lack of education, etc.
Definitely! There are some things in society that are harmful to the public, antisocial, breaches of the social contract--such as being unvaccinated, not washing your hands after taking a huge dump, or spreading conspiracies--but which are not illegal or redeemable in tort, things for which public shaming is a just and maybe only remedy.
The QAnon Anonymous podcast studies conspiratorial thinking. Very solid reporting, very entertaining if you have a sense to rubberneck the disaster of conspiracy theories.
I’m glad she got out. Hope more people can and do.
I recommend this podcast to a lot of people and always have to say "it's NOT a pro-QAnon podcast" every time.
Isolated from friends and family, distrustful of the explanations offered by officials and the media, Ramona and Don began to prepare. The military might try to put Americans like them in concentration camps run by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, or FEMA. They had to be ready to flee.
I understand we're getting specific examples to flesh out the story, but this is a failure of critical thinking skills.
They are former fast food workers in western Tennessee that one now works at an auto assembly plant and the other is in a local college to become a school teacher.
Lets assume for a moment there is a plausible "why" to continue the thought experiment. It doesn't even pass back-of-the-napkin math.
How could the government go about do this?
If the bar for being rounded was up all college students and all automobile assembly workers, it would likely include hundreds of other jobs of the same level. There are just too many people to put in a camp! Who would build the camp? Wouldn't we see the camps all over the country under construction? No? Would Western Tennessee be the FIRST camp to be built? Who are they going to get to run the camp? The entirety of people employed at FEMA is only 20,000 people That's not even enough people to run camps in just Western Tennessee. Memphis alone has population of 655,569. Where are you gonna put all those folks? Who are their jailers?
This claim of camps should have fallen apart with the smallest of scrutiny.
I give credit to the woman who was deep into this that figured this out for herself eventually. She was also pretty young and just entering the adult world which itself is pretty scary irrespective of a never before seen global pandemic.
conspiracy theories are perfect for certain types of people to latch on to because the narrative presented is malleable. If the theory is wrong it can be re-shaped into something new to explain the new unknown.
if you scrutinised a conspiracy then yes they would generally fall flat, but if someone were the dispenser of that knowledge who imbued themselves with the self-importance of knowing secret details, they could always shift the goalposts and weave a new version of the story to maintain the reality they want to revel in.
Tldr - the answer was domestic violence.
Literally slapped back to reality.