this post was submitted on 08 Sep 2023
381 points (96.8% liked)
Asklemmy
44151 readers
1338 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
Search asklemmy ๐
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Yo OP. We're carbon based, which you accept. Diamond is stronger than almost all metal, and it's pure carbon. Why wouldn't we have metal in our veins? We atomically won that round before inflation was even over.
I'm just playin, carbon under high enough pressure is metal too.
Twice over, my favorite fact is that humanity has only existed during the time frames that the moon and the sun have been the same size in our sky, this allowing total eclipse - which is so obviously ridiculously rare I don't see the point in quantifying with maths.
I think it's bizarre to think we have free will. Everywhere around us, in all our tech, tools, toys we see the realities of determinism. Cause and effect. To think that our minds are somehow not governed by this in a universe that unequivocally is is beyond Babel levels of arrogance.
Beyond that, the idea that's gaining ground about shared consciousness I find really intriguing. Rather fascinating stuff.
Consciousness is the biggest mystery of the all, after all.
I'm mostly with you except for the determinism. Not only do we KNOW that the universe is fundamentally probabilistic and not deterministic, all our technology works extremely hard to combat random errors because small electronics are absolutely not deterministic, they are just engineered to have a low enough randomness so we can counteract it.
Did something change? Last time I checked we didn't know whether in the grand scale the universe is or isn't deterministic.
That we know that the universe isn't (seemingly) deterministic locally doesn't change anything about that.
I'm pretty sure it is essentially that any propensity the macro-scale universe has for the appearance of determinism is an illusion since the fundamental scales of the universe and everything it is built on are probabilistic. Nothing built on probabilistic foundations can be deterministic. It can appear to be. In large enough samples the law of large numbers smooths all the chaos out, but that is all our world is. Mathematically smoothed chaos. We as a species have known that for a very long time, but it has only begun to permeate the social zeitgeist in recent years and there is still a lot of pushback from certain sections of society.
The best theories are non-deterministic, but of course we don't know if they are the last word about reality. To put it another way, we don't know why the math is non-deterministic in our best equations.
The old equations were deterministic, but they turned out to be wrong. Something similar may happen here.
Allowing for quantum randomness does not help the free will argument. Randomness might be "free", but it is certainly not but "will".
But it does. If the universe was deterministic, choice would be impossible because all outcomes would be predetermined.
Quantum randomness may not directly provide free will but it does exclude determinism, which would make free will impossible.
This "choice" is just the manifestation what you are at that moment, the sum of everything that has influenced you up until this point. Whether that complex tangle of cause and effect was "determined" a million years ago or affected by random fluctuations the whole way, including a moment ago, doesn't change anything. "Free will" just doesn't make any sense, regardless of whether one considers predeterminism to be the alternative.
Huh, I always thought of us having free will in response to cause and efect, not in place of it. But maybe I'm understanding free will differently?
I think Camus might have summed it up best when he said the only real choice (therefore, freedom to exercise will) humanity has is whether or not to commit suicide.
Whether or not free will is "real" in some rigidly technical measurable way, we have never known anything different than what we now experience as living beings. To me, telling people "free will doesn't exist!" is like telling them "you don't meet arbitrary standards of self-actualization that don't really exist anywhere else either!" and it has roughly the same effect on me: none, except that the speaker (in my experience, including offline conversations) often comes across as talking down to other people and maybe making them feel less good about their lived experiences.
I'm not religious, but I feel the same way about the kind of person that'd feel compelled to sneer "god's not real" at a religious funeral to feel superior.
https://existentialcomics.com/comic/125
I had a conversation with my neighbor along those lines. He reads his Bible everyday. I asked him if he knew that God were real, 100%, something/someone he could reach out and touch, if that would change how he lives his life.
I answered before he had a chance and said in no way would it change mine. I live my values. He said it wouldn't effect him either, and I believe, he is a genuinely great guy. But the fact that that would change soooo many people is either terrifying or makes me super grateful that they have their reasons to not indulge their worst instincts.
Both are unsettling, really.
There's quite a few versions of God that have hard determinism built right in, too. It's God's will that everything has a linear course, nothing can be changed, no choices are made, which means people are predestined to be punished for things they literally have no choice in.
In my opinion that's crushingly bleak and believing in and outright praising any sort of divine creator that'd punish their own creations for doing exactly what was planned for them is fucked up on so many levels.
I suppose such an entity would be an interesting premise for very dark horror literature.
If the universe is deterministic, it means that every particle has an infinitely predictable path. And our body and brain are full of particles which could only ever move in the predetermined way. And because our thoughts are only movements of neurone, which in turn, as everything, are made of particles, every action of ours would be predetermined and we could never decide otherwise than we did.
sometimes your brain will decide something independently of conscious thought, and then invent a compelling narrative for why you are about to do what your brain already decided you were going to do
This kind of effect can be seen when a split brain person reacts to textual commands, like "stand up" seen on a computer screen in front of them only one eye can see by standing up, but when asked verbally why they stood up they just make up some shit on the fly like "I was tired of sitting and wanted to stretch my legs"
We're just narrative machines (no, not like ChatGPT)
It could be asserted that none of our decisions are ever actually real, and its all just a series of these 'decisions' that are just invented by your brain to explain why you're doing what you were always going to do, and thus you don't have free will you just tell yourself that you do as a nice story.
I don't believe that, I think that assertion is a bit like last tuesdayism and I dislike the unfalsifiablity of it, but yeah I get the argument
We don't know whether the universe is deterministic, though. That's the only slimmer of hope for free will we can have.
The fun thing is, even if we assume our consciousness isn't entirely deterministic, the most reasonable alternative would be pure randomness.
Which, in the end, makes absolutely no difference in the free will argument.
Except the universe is full of non-determinism that we work hard to keep quiet in our toys.
How would our minds not being governed by this universe imply free will?
If anything, I'd assume the you don't have free will if your actions weren't chosen from experience, but were controlled by a supernatural ghost.
We do have metal in our veins. Blood has metallic taste precisely because of iron, which carries oxygen through our body.
Metal has no taste tho. What yr tasting is you. VSauce or Nilered did a video about it.
You can test it yourself, just degrease and wash a coin. Once clean, no taste.
Years upon years of being told this cannot make me not taste metal from stainless steel cups/canteens and forks, even brand new and/or freshly scrubbed to hell and back. I can't use stainless steel tumblers because of this - even if I keep my tongue well away from it, and it's the cleanest dish in the world, it makes the drink taste metallic. No amount of youtubers just insisting I don't/can't taste a thing can actually compete with a lifetime of experiencing this problem. And I have, multiple times, tried all the things they say to do to fix the "real" problem - but no. Steel tastes like steel, always.
Hypothesis: this is one of those things some people can taste and others can't, like how there's a whole group of "cilantro tastes like soap" people and everyone else is like ????
Of course it is not free metal. Probably oxide. And no, I am not going to taste rust.