this post was submitted on 16 Feb 2025
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Sure...sure... theres democracy... so as long you align with the party's ideology.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purges_of_the_Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union
I don't know if you've picked up on this or not, but I'm a Marxist, I've seen the Wikipedia pages for everything you've linked, and actually read beyond Wikipedia. One of the books I linked, Soviet Democracy, is even listed as a source on Wikipedia's page on Soviet Democracy (go figure).
Either way, liberals, fascists, and Tsarists were indeed kicked out of the party, imprisoned, or sentenced to death, depending on the severity of their crimes.
I really don't know what point you're trying to make here, I already openly stated that the Soviet Union wasn't a mythical wonderland, my position is that it was Socialist and working towards Communism, none of which you seem to have contested. What are you trying to get at?
As I said, the argument was if the USSR was autocratic. Noone disagrees rather or not they were socialists nor they make offical statments they intended on working toward communism.
But its very clear that the leadership was very autocratic and anti-democractic and only accepted undying loyalty.
It isn't clear at all, actually, and your dedication to vaguely gesture at Wikipedia articles doesn't discredit that. I don't see how not allowing liberals, fascists, or Tsarists into government is synonymous with "only accepting undying loyalty."
I mean, im not the one trying to make a claim that they were democratic while forbiding any ideology that opposes theirs. The mental gymnastics involved here could be the next Olympic event.
Fascism, Capitalism, and Monarchism should be allowed within a Socialist system why? The economy was far more democratic than under the Tsars or under the current Russian Federation. Democracy doesn't have to include freedom for fascists, the bougeoisie, or monarchists, and in fact shouldn't for the Proletariat to have full control.
Who is the proletariat but people? What if they wanted any of those things? Their ideas are qlworthless because they dont fit your very narrow view? You are no better than the US republicans who label everyone they dont like as "communists".
The Proletariat is the people indeed, and the people supported the purges. They had already spent years in a civil war against the Tsarists, were invaded by 14 Capitalist nations, and fascists in Nazi Germany were killing Communists from day 1. The re-introduction of Capitalism resulted in 7 million excess deaths.
Yes, Monarchism, Capitalism, and fascism are worthless.
Sounds a lot like facism in a trench coat.
Sounds like anti-fascism, anti-capitalism, and anti-monarchism is... fascism? Do you read what you write? Again, I'll direct you over to Dr. Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds.
Lets see here... the definition of facism
authoritarian: check
dictatorial leader: check
militarism: check
forcible suppression of opposition: check
subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation: check
strong regimentation of society and the economy: check
It may claim to be a turkey, but its seems to be clucking a lot like a chicken.
Certainly less authoritarian than Tsarism, Capitalism, or fascism, didn't have a dictatorial leader, genuinely served the interests of the individual and the collective, and reduced regimentation of society and the economy compared to Tsarism, Capitalism, and fascism. The only point you have was the millitarism.
Again, read Blackshirts and Reds. The Communists and fascists were entirely antagonistic and served different classes, the Communists served the proletariat while the fascists served the bourgeoisie.
Read it, you need to understand history.
Im tired of these wasted arguments. I agree the soviets were not facists in the strictest sense. But my entire point is the result of the soviet model lead to the exact same autocracy authoritarian government that denied their civilians right to their own voices.
They weren't fascist in any sense. Your point isn't based on historical fact at all, you just kept linking Wikipedia articles when I was giving you sources Wikipedia cites. It was in no way the "exact same autocracy authoritarian government" or anything of the sort, you literally said fascists should have been allowed in government even when the citizens supported the purges.
This is historical nihilism, you don't care about history, you care about being right.
I said purging opposition is a facist purge. And can you really say "citizens" support it when elections were limited by choices preapprpved by the communist party? Even if it were supported by the majority... then that simply makes them no better than the nazis purging their population. Do you support genocide? It sounds a lot like you support genocide.
Removing fascists from government is fascist?
Supporting democracy is equivalent to supporting genocide?
Supporting a popular movement to remove fascists from government is equivalent to supporting genocide?
I'm convinced you don't actually read what you write at all, this is incredibly silly behavior. You're even wrong about candidates needing to be "pre-approved," that was true in some cases and false in others, and even if it was true in all cases it doesn't mean popular support for removing fascists is somehow support for genocide.
Seriously, touch grass. You don't have to read, or learn about history, as long as you make an effort to touch grass at this point.
You do know "purging" wasnt being sent off to a happy little farm, right?
"Purging" normally meant "expulsion from Party membership" and carried no actual punishment. For criminals who were purged, that also included jail time or even execution. The myth that everyone purged was executed comes from the Black Book of Communism, anti-communist mythology that the creators have since denounced, and even included Nazis killed during World War II as "victims of Communism."
You can feel free to read history books like the ones I have linked.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
Cant wait to see how you hand wave this one away.
Hand wave what away? Everything I have said is consistent with what we historically know about the Soviet Union. Can you point to something you believe I disagree with? Just linking Wikipedia articles doesn't actually constitute an argument, do you think I am denying that the Great Purge happened at all?
Touch grass, please.
Your words. So you agree the great purge occured... so how are you going to explain how 1 million executions were justified and how many more does it need to be to stop being mythical?
Don't know where you got "1 million executions." No more than 700,000 were condemned to death, and of those condemned many had their sentences reduced. Even if all 700,000 were killed, that still fits what I have actually said, you've been putting words in my mouth. Moreover, you'll want to read this excerpt from the book The Triumph of Evil, specifically page 74:
This is why relying exclusively on Wikipedia is silly, do some actual reading. A solid rule of thumb with respect to any Wikipedia article on enemies of the US is to look at where the figures and sources come from and analyze them yourself, as you can see Wikipedia made the error of conflating condemnations with executions.