this post was submitted on 18 Feb 2025
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[–] earphone843@sh.itjust.works 22 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Capitalism, like communism, looks good on paper. But humans suck, so any system will eventually be corrupted by those who seek power at the expense of others.

But yeah, the US was never truly capitalistic.

[–] darthelmet@lemmy.world 24 points 2 days ago

There's a difference though. To the extent that a communist society fails in it's goals, it's because of people's failure to achieve them.

The problems with capitalism are inevitable consequences of the system. Competition is theoretically supposed to keep things in check, but that just doesn't really pass the smell test for real life. We essentially never have markets that work like the mythical economic model of many sellers and many buyers so that nobody can be a price setter. Plus, competitions are meant to be won. Companies aren't working to keep each other in the race. The goal is to drive out your competition and become a monopoly. Maybe there are brief periods where things stay competitive, but even small differences in success can compounded to further solidify your advantage, in turn making it easier to keep doing that. And that's just if everything started our fairly, which it obviously didn't.

Then there is the divide between capital and labor. In order for there to be wage workers, there must be a population of people who don't own what they need to keep themselves alive. Otherwise there wouldn't be capitalists, there would just be people using their own property to produce their own goods. And once we've established that this is a necessary part of capitalism, we have to acknowledge that workers wanting to be paid the most possible and to buy things for the cheapest possible is in direct opposition to the capitalist's need to pay workers as little as possible and sell their goods for as much as possible. This isn't some anomalously evil behavior, it's the kind of optimization required to be the winner in the market competition. So even if you had a benevolent capitalist who decided to pay more and sell for less, they would just lose to someone else who is actually playing to win. And thus in the long term, the system filters out this altruistic behavior as a natural consequence of it's mechanisms.

Furthermore, this need to divide capital from labor is in tension with the possibility that people could just take the stuff you're hoarding. Because if they have nothing, you have an abundance, and you're just one person, then it'd be the rational thing to do to take the stuff without having to work for you. Thus, in order for this divide between capital and labor to be maintained, there must be a concept of property rights that is enforced with some kind of organized violence, either by the state or by private security.

The other symptoms of capitalism naturally flow from these core principles.

  • Corporate capture of the political system? Aside from the state existing to enforce private property rights in the first place, the inequality created by the outcomes of competition and the capital/labor divide creates power imbalances that can be used to influence governments more than those with less power.

  • Climate change and environmental destruction due to over-consumption? You don't make money from selling less stuff or from paying for things you don't need to pay for. So you do things to induce demand like advertising, planned obsolescence, and influencing policy to kill green energy and public transportation, etc. There's no reason for a corporation, a profit maximizing machine, to do anything that wouldn't optimize it's profits. If it did anything else, it would lose to someone who did do that.

  • This meme: Privatization of public goods. If there is something you could make a profit from, a corporation must exploit that thing to maximize profits and win the competition. So there is an incentive to take things that aren't commodities and turn them into commodities. This is sort of related to the divide of labor and capital as well. In order to be able to sell people things, they need to not have those things and not have a means of acquiring those things outside of buying them from capitalists, which in turn means needing to work for capitalists. If you had adequate access to food, housing, water, clothing, and medical care, you'd have no reason to buy those things from capitalists and would therefore have way less of a reason to put up with working for them. So those things must be withheld. This is also part of why there has been a problem with loneliness and the destruction of communities. Communities support each other. If your friend is willing to drive you to the doctor (or better yet, if there's public transportation), you don't need to call a taxi/ride share. If someone is willing to help feed you when things are going bad, maybe you don't need to work another shift at some shitty job. If you have people you can enjoy socializing with by just talking or doing some free activity like taking a walk in the park, then maybe you don't spend money to buy as much entertainment as you would if you were alone. Maybe you don't have a social media account or don't spend a lot of time on it just so that you can get some kind of socializing.

These are all bad things done to us by bad people. But the problem isn't that the specific people in power happen to be bad and ruin what would otherwise be a good system. The bad people being in power is the inevitable end result of the system.

[–] spankmonkey@lemmy.world 13 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Capitalism would work if everyone played fair and all members of society were able to make informed decisions. Unfortunately businesses are always allowed to lie and cheat their way to success because they hold the power through capital.

Comminism would work if everyone played fair and all members of society were able to make informed decisions. Unfortunately the communist party is always allowed to lie and cheat their way to success because they hold the power through purity tests.

Most systems would work a lot better if they didn't require all participation to be in good faith.

[–] 9point6@lemmy.world 13 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Obviously it's the point you're making, but this is pretty reductive

Bad faith participation disappears pretty rapidly if there's nothing to gain from it.

Centralised power structures are fundamentally a big part of most of our problems.

You don't require universal good faith if those working in bad faith are unable to amass any substantial power.

There's plenty of flavours of left-wing ideology built around decentralised power structures

[–] spankmonkey@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You don’t require universal good faith if those working in bad faith are unable to amass any substantial power.

No, but it is a trade off from substantial power over a larger group for a lot of small time bad faith actors having an easier time affecting a smaller group. Like how a small town sheriff can be malicious on their own without needing an organized state level party to enact their abuses of power.

I'm not sure which is better or worse overall, but definitely agree that too much centralization ends up with opportunities to do far more damage to a larger population in a shorter period of time.

[–] leftytighty@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The left wing ideologies referred to by the original commentator don't just have small scale hierarchies, they reject hierarchies and authorities in general. No sheriff.

[–] spankmonkey@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] leftytighty@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

No, still not getting it. You're imagining today's society without authority.

That's like thinking veganism is when you're eating a bun with lettuce and no burger.

It's fundamentally different, and there are many examples of societies like that in history.

Your caricature is only showing the limits of your imagination and your lack of knowledge

[–] spankmonkey@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It’s fundamentally different, and there are many examples of societies like that in history.

Lynchings were society enforcing their will collectively without an authoritarian structure. Lynchings were often (but not always) opposed by authorities who wanted a trial, even if the trial was likely to be a sham.

Black Panthers were the opposite, a community defense that was organized as a response to the abuses of those with authority. Basically the opposite of the groups that committed lynchings.

Being decentralized doesn't solve the problems of centralized authority without being a tradeoff for the problems of a lack of authority. Both require a society that stands behind whichever approach is chosen and holds people accountable for abusing the social contract. Decentralized might even be better, but it isn't a panacea.

What historical societies had little to no authority without running into issues with malicious actors?

[–] leftytighty@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I don't disagree with your core point, but it's useful to imagine and learn from other ways. We need to organize, we need to exist amongst each other, if all systems are corruptible we may as well choose ones that empower individuals, orient towards collective well-being, and ideologically oppose oppression.

As for examples

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-mutual-aid-a-factor-of-evolution

[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

People who do the "all systems are the same maaaaaaaan, humans just suck maaaaaan" should be forced to live as feudal peasents.

Humans don't suck, you just live under a system that conditions you to be apathetic and misanthropic.

[–] leftytighty@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 day ago

Democracy hasn't worked all of the times it's been tried why even bother human nature capitalist realism no other way literally give up