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The most famous forms of Holocaust denial and revisionism tend to focus on Jews, casting doubt, for example, on how many were exterminated in the camps. But denying the impact the Nazis had on the other groups they targeted, including queer and trans people, disabled people and Romani people, is still Holocaust denial. Maybe someone should tell J.K. Rowling.

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[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 13 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I disagree. The Potter goblins are diminutive, hooknosed, saurian creatures, with creepy long fingers and crafty natures. They have exceptional financial skills and stop at nothing to acquire or protect money and precious objects. It is antisemitic that anyone would encounter such a character and think: “Aha, a Jew!”

No, ~~John~~ Jon Stewart looked at the Harry Potter goblins and saw an offensive Jewish caricature. As an ethnically Jewish trans woman I agree with him. Rowling's goblins and her Holocaust denial are harmful. I'm a huge Harry Potter fan too, so I don't begrudge anyone for enjoying her content or even paying for content. I of course appreciate when people avoid those things. Profits from her games, books and movies go to funding anti-trans causes which make her content harmful. All I ask is that when Rowling does something harmful, like Holocaust denial or fund anti-trans causes people agree that what she is doing and her content is harmful.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/harry-potter-author-jk-rowling-faces-backlash-over-donations-to-group-challenging-transgender-rights/ar-BB1iw90J

The author once again attracted attention after donating $97,000 to For Women Scotland. The funds are earmarked for a legal challenge set to be heard in the UK Supreme Court. The objective of the lawsuit is to redefine the word "woman" such that it applies exclusively to cisgender women. The proposed redefinition stands to harm transgender women who have undergone gender-affirming procedures. Rowling publicly supported her donation, stating: "You know how proud I am to know you. Thank you for all your hard work and tenacity. This truly is a historic case."

LGBTQ+ activists are warning that redefining the word "woman" paves the way for discrimination and prejudice against transgender or non-binary individuals.

edit: Jon not John

[–] lennybird@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

To be clear, Jon Stewart later clarified:

I do not think J.K. Rowling is anti-Semitic. I did not accuse her of being anti-Semitic. I do not think that the Harry Potter movies are anti-Semitic.

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

To be clear, Jon Stewart later clarified:

I do not think J.K. Rowling is anti-Semitic. I did not accuse her of being anti-Semitic. I do not think that the Harry Potter movies are anti-Semitic.

~~John~~ Jon Stewart said the goblins are an offensive Jewish caricature. None of these statements contradict each other. The point is, no one looked at the goblins and thought they were Jews as the author of Please shut up about the Harry Potter Jew-goblins suggests. It is not antisemitic to point out that the goblins are collectively an offensive Jewish caricature. edit: typo, https://www.adl.org/spelling-antisemitism-vs-anti-semitism, typo, Jon not John

[–] lennybird@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

None of these statements contradict each other.

I didn't say they were, but I do think it's an important distinction because the entire purpose of highlighting this in context of J.K. Rowling is to accuse her of explicit antisemitism. Whereas Jon (not John) continued to write:

“tropes [like the goblins bankers] are so embedded in society that they're basically invisible.”

This means, indeed, that two things can be true at the same time: Rowling subconsciously used a Jewish caricature (as did Tolkien before her), and (2) Rowling is not Antisemitic.

Many people -- not you, necessarily -- equate the two.

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Nowhere in my argument did I say Rowling was antisemitic. I said her goblins are harmful.

Rowling’s goblins and her Holocaust denial are harmful.

It really doesn't matter if she did it intentionally or not, it's harmful regardless.

[–] lennybird@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

Perhaps; though that's not a reflection of her -- but as Stewart points out society as a whole and the power we give to racist stereotypical tropes in the first place -- it's a convenient target for those who are already looking to hate on her for other more substantive reasons.

On a separate note, do you not think it's a stretch to lump her in with holocaust deniers this quickly? Isn't it a little too soon to categorize her lack of understanding that the concept of trans or books being burned occurred under nazis versus those who deny millions were murdered in general? If anything, doesn't that water-down the category of Holocaust Deniers?

[–] Traegert@lemm.ee 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Doesn't anyone who actively tries to defend literal Nazis by saying "wait wait guys the Nazis weren't THAT bad" https://www.thedailybeast.com/jk-rowling-adds-holocaust-denialism-to-her-transphobia warrent like....an immediate "this fucker is insane" thing? I mean if you're trying to defend someone who is trying to defend WW2 Nazis I think you're in the wrong camp is all

[–] lennybird@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)
  • I think there is a considerable logical leap if not an outright non-sequitur between being misinformed on nazi atrocities / history, and "defending nazis"
  • I don't think we can strawman what Rowling did with, "Nazis weren't THAT bad."
  • I think it's too early to put considerable weight on her intent or beliefs surrounding nazis on this singular tweet.
  • But yes, I do agree people who legitimately defend nazis are insane.
  • Categorically calling it holocaust denial to me diminishes the scale of damage caused by legitimate holocaust deniers.
  • I suspect there are many individuals who already hate Rowling personally for comments related to Trans rights are looking for things to an irrational degree.

That being said I don't think I can add any more to this conversation that I haven't already and so thank you for the discussion and oblige you with the final word.

[–] Traegert@lemm.ee 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Doesn't she, as a public figure, whose tweets (xhits?) will reach millions, have more of an onus of responsibility on her to fact check herself? I do agree with you on the fact that she's not ENTIRELLY denying the holocaust and to put her in the same camp as those who do DOES weaken what that means, 100% agreed on that. She's not a holocaust denier, she just denies some specific things that happened in the holocaust. It's still SUPER shitty and SUPER wrong but yes, agreed, she's not going around spouting "it never happened!" shit. I just came into this conversation but I appreciate your input all the same

PS Rowling is a hateful bigot

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

society as a whole and the power we give to racist stereotypical tropes in the first place

Ignoring racist stereotypes in fiction isn't the solution. We should want to do better.

On a separate note, do you not think it’s a stretch to lump her in with holocaust deniers this quickly?

No. Holocaust denial is holocaust denial. It's never too early to call it out.

Isn’t it a little too soon to categorize her lack of understanding that the concept of trans or books being burned occurred under nazis versus those who deny millions were murdered in general?

No. Valuable research was lost that could have benefited millions of people. Not to mention trans people were killed by the Nazis. The fact millions of Jews were killed does not diminish the harm in denying that other groups were targeted by the Nazis.

If anything, doesn’t that water-down the category of Holocaust Deniers?

Although Jews were the group who had the most causalities, the Holocaust affected many different groups of people. Denying any part of the Holocaust is harmful and calling that out in no way diminishes the seriousness of Holocaust denial.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/mosaic-of-victims-an-overview

https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Holocaust-Facts-and-Figures

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/new-research-reveals-how-the-nazis-targeted-transgender-people-180982931/

[–] lennybird@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I appreciate the sources and acknowledge everyone from Jews to Communists to Gypsies, LGBTQ, to the Handicapped and so forth were ostracized, discriminated upon, and murdered by the Nazis. What I note does not detract from that; merely to say that someone not recognizing what is frankly not a mainstream fact about the Holocaust does not make them a holocaust denier; it may make them holocaust illiterate. So I mean it's good to be proactive with this stuff but it's also important to give people the chance to take a step back and give people a way out instead of compelling them to become what you repeatedly label them as. Reading too much into a single tweet when there -- to my knowledge -- hasn't been a response or clarification from Rowling -- is jumping the gun. I admire the confidence in your convictions but I don't agree with your conclusions.

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Despite your argument's insistence to the contrary nowhere in my argument do I accuse Rowling of being anything. Whether or not Rowling is ignorant is irrelevant. Her actions are what matter. When presented with new information about the Holocaust her response was not to become more informed, but to deny the information. That is Holocaust denial and it is harmful. edit: typos