this post was submitted on 08 Nov 2023
767 points (98.9% liked)

News

23266 readers
3173 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil


Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.


2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.


Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.


3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.


Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.


4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.


Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.


5. Only recent news is allowed.


Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.


6. All posts must be news articles.


No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.


7. No duplicate posts.


If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.


8. Misinformation is prohibited.


Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.


9. No link shorteners.


The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.


10. Don't copy entire article in your post body


For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Hillock@kbin.social 33 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Because one of the biggest issues with sex work, human trafficking, gets worse with legalization. Studies across Europe have shown that countries that outlaw prostitution see a decrease in human trafficking victims while countries that legalized or decriminalized it see an increase.

Unlike with drugs, you don't just create a way to increase the supply. A very small minority of women actually want to engage in sex work. And the few who do, usually envision the high class escort lifestyle. But working in a brothel charging $100 per client isn't something many want to do.

But legalizing prostitution increases demand. Which makes it more profitable for criminals to utilize human trafficking to fill that demand.

https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/

One source of it.

It also doesn't help at all with protecting victims of human trafficking. Victims of human trafficking are already protected. But they don't step forward because of threats against their own well being and that of their families. Something that doesn't change just because their work technically is legal now.

Which leaves a small percentage of people who fall into financial hardship and consider prostitution as a method of overcoming said hardship. For them that might slightly improve their situation. But that still means exploiting vulnerable people and isn't people engaging in sex work because they want to. And it's even questionable if people in these scenarios would follow the legal way.

So while initially it might seem like legalizing it solves a lot of issues, it is more difficult than that.

[–] Furedadmins@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

Us laws regarding sex work are firmly based in puritanical values not out of any concern whatsoever regarding trafficking.

[–] crackajack@reddthat.com 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I reckon that even though sex work is legalised, and still caused issues, the problem is that there is no government regulation. It's one thing to say by the government that they won't prosecute sex workers, but if it's not regulated and abuse still happens then nothing changed for all intents and purposes. Best analogy I could think of is like allowing food factories to manufacture food, of course. But if there is no regulatory watchdog to monitor and test to make sure food factories are not putting random and dangerous stuff into food, then legalising an activity is pointless.

Basically, the sex industry having been legalised by many countries is unofficially a libertarian set up. Yeah, the government exists and allow sexual transactions between agreeing parties, but they're hands off on how the practitioners in the industry would conduct business. There is no government agency for sex workers to complain to if they're abused. I know people would ask, how exactly would the government regulate sex? That, I will leave to policy experts.

Edit: wording

[–] elbarto777@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Thanks for the data. I think the issue here is not that legal prostitution creates problems, but rather the government bodies being incompetent at protecting the victims, then.

There are other industries in which people "sell their bodies" for profit (the military and construction come to mind), and if those can be quite regulated, why can't prostitution?

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 year ago

We all sell our bodies for profit. To be fair though, wage theft is the most common form of theft. We're all prostitutes and we're almost all being taken advantage of, and we're in a system where we can't really get out.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 3 points 1 year ago

government bodies being incompetent at protecting the victims, then.

My guess is that it's just more difficult to control prostitution than it is to control construction work. Construction happens in the open, you need to get tons of permits, multiple companies are involved, inspectors check everything regularly. It would be difficult to force some people to work on a construction site without anyone realizing. But how are you going to make sure that each sexual intercourse in some strip bar is 'legal'? Are you going to put inspectors in bathroom stalls? How can you check every cash transaction? It's pretty much impossible. You can monitor the sex work that's advertised and happening 'in the open' but there will always be some grey and black market for it. And the ugly stuff will happen there.

[–] hark@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I see this single study trotted out every time the subject comes up and the key factor to take into account is that this is reported trafficking. If legalized sex work means more light is shed on human trafficking that means more can be done about it.

[–] unoriginalsin@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

key factor to take into account is that this is reported trafficking. If legalized sex work means more light is shed on human trafficking that means more can be done about it.

Just because more is reported doesn't mean more isn't also happening. In fact, one could reasonably expect reporting to go down as a percentage of incidents due to ordinary citizens not expecting sex workers to be involved in trafficking since sex work is now legal. That the number goes up after the stigma is removed seems to strongly indicate a correlation with a rise in actual trafficking.

[–] hark@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

More or less is a matter of comparison. How do you compare with an underground activity that cannot be tracked as easily?

[–] unoriginalsin@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How do you compare with an underground activity that cannot be tracked as easily?

As with anything, you can only work with the data you actually have.

[–] hark@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sure, but all you have is assumptions and you're assuming the increased reporting of trafficking means that trafficking is increasing rather than it just getting caught more. It's like when some governments fought over covid reporting. Keeping it hidden doesn't mean less of it is happening and making it more visible doesn't mean more of it is happening.

[–] unoriginalsin@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Sure, but all you have is assumptions

Isn't that a bit of the pot calling the kettle black?

[–] hark@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, because you presented the study as supposed proof of more human trafficking.

[–] unoriginalsin@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

First, I didn't present anything.

Second, it does prove that more human trafficking is reported.

You only have the assumption that bringing it into the light of day results in a higher rate of reporting against actual incidents. It's an interesting hypothesis, but without any evidence to support your assumption Occam's Razor dictates that the simplest answer is that the rates do not change drastically and there actually is more human trafficking to be reported.

[–] hark@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You didn't present anything but you certainly act like you did. We're agreed in that it proves more human trafficking is reported but again, that doesn't mean more human trafficking is happening. Refer back to my example about covid case reporting. Incorrectly citing Occam's Razor doesn't strengthen your argument.

[–] unoriginalsin@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

You didn't present anything but you certainly act like you did.

I did no such thing.

We're agreed in that it proves more human trafficking is reported but again, that doesn't mean more human trafficking is happening.

Unless the reporting rates go down, then it must certainly does.

Refer back to my example about covid case reporting.

Your example of a concerted effort of large governmental agencies to hide the actual reported numbers is not actually relevant here. It wouldn't even be relevant if it were just random underreporting outside of governments as it doesn't have any similarity to decriminalizing sex work.

Incorrectly citing Occam's Razor doesn't strengthen your argument.

You have made more assumptions than I have. Tell me how you think Occam doesn't apply. You can't just declare an argument to be invalid and expect anyone to take your seriously.

What evidence do you have to support your theory that decriminalizing an activity increases the rate of reporting? If you don't have any, then you don't even have an argument. You only have your suppositions and theories.

It's entirely possible that you're correct, and decriminalization increases reporting without increasing activity. I have yet to see what mechanism you propose causes this quite curious paradox, so without some explanation you'll have to concede that you at least can offer no actual reason to believe it's true.

[–] masquenox@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because one of the biggest issues with sex work, human trafficking, gets worse with legalization.

Yes, because legalizing sex work is just criminalizing sex work with extra steps. It's very easy to see an (alleged) "rise in sex trafficking" when the legalization shuffle allows politicians to all of a sudden decide what is "allowed" sex work and what is "sex trafficking."

This is why shitty studies like the one you linked is so thoroughly non-credible - it was performed without the input of the people who actually know what they are talking about - ie, sex workers themselves.

[–] WldFyre@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

What the fuck are you talking about?

legalizing sex work is just criminalizing sex work with extra steps

So what's the solution?? You just made random assertions without any sources and didn't suggest any alternatives. All while skimming over the very real trafficking/coersion problems unique to sex work.

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 points 1 year ago

I was totally onboard with them but the longer they talk the weirder the takes get.

[–] masquenox@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What the fuck are you talking about?

Do tell... is this the first time you've actually considered what sex workers themselves have to say about (so-called) "legalization?"

None of this is a secret, Clyde.

unique to sex work.

ROFLMAO! No, genius... trafficking is not unique to sex work in any way, shape, or form. If you weren't filled to the brim with anti-sex work hysteria you'd have known that already.

[–] WldFyre@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Do tell… is this the first time you’ve actually considered what sex workers themselves have to say about (so-called) “legalization?”

The sex workers with those opinions usually are the already more well off workers who perform escort or cam services, and isn't reflective of the bottom strata of sex worker experiences. It also doesn't address how more common sex work leads to higher trafficking rates.

trafficking is not unique to sex work in any way, shape, or form.

Lol I'd love any source on this whatsoever. I'm not sure how you defend this line of thought, or why you feel this way. You don't think human trafficking shares any of the same risk factors or conditions as sex work?

ROFLMAO!

LOLCOPTER

[–] masquenox@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

and isn’t reflective of the bottom strata of sex worker experiences.

You're going to have to do a whole lot better than hiding behind impoverished people.

It also doesn’t address how more common sex work leads to higher trafficking rates.

That has already been explained to you.

Lol I’d love any source on this whatsoever.

You need a source to tell you that labor and refugee trafficking is a thing?

I’m not sure how you defend this line of thought,

It's really simple... I have no wish to demonize and criminalize sex workers - unlike you.