Egon

:yea:

Thanks for addressing a lot of things I let slide for the sake of a good discussion, and thanks for doing it far more succinctly than I could've.

(This was the best emoji for pollen I could think of)

The Ukrainian state forces it's people to fight and does not allow them to leave. It has a choice and that choice is to listen to it's people and accept peace.
If you think they should fight despite the fact that they do not wish to, then go volunteer yourself. Otherwise let the people decide for themselves.
Also your suggestion that they should leave is funny. I mean yeah if we're in Fantasyland sure, they should leave. I also think Putin should give everyone a pony. Sadly we live in a world where Putin hasn't given me a pony, a world were parties doesn't give up leverage before a negotiation.
You guys keep talking about Russians being untrustworthy, but it was Ukraine that broke treaties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements

Ukraine is far from spotless on the treaty-upholding-front. The current government was installed by the US, which is in direct breach of the Budapest Memorandum. The government has broken Minsk I and II which was a large part of the russian justification for the SMO.

Lmao excellent rebuttal good sir, perfectly shows the two sides.
"Hey here's a well thought out argument referring to general tendencies in online discussion and the current observable situation in Ukraine."
"Nuh uh"

It must be wild to as heavily programmed as you are

Bro it's not even 2 minutes of reading, get it together

Fair point. If this were a situation were I was trying to convince the other part, then I would agree with you, my question doesn't create any strong argument and it is quite reductive. I've used it as a sort of gotcha in discussions when we reached the ideological level (russia is fascists genocider badman!) But to be quite honest I am not asking this as a gotcha now. I've asked it so much and never gotten an answer and I've gotten curious about what the honest answer is. I'd like to know how people can scream about fascism and against peace, while not being willing to fight themselves. If I truly believed the war in Ukraine was an existential threat, and was somehow able to square that with the fact ukrainians weren't willing to fight, and able to square that with the idea that was must go on, then I can't see how I wouldn't also be volunteering.

The question as I've posed it is flawed, it requires that we accept the people of Ukraine do not wish to fight and that the war is lost - I feel like I've presented a solid case for both, but it's still sort of a prerequisite - and anyone who agrees on those two fronts, is more than likely a person who is more informed than the person who thinks the war should continue. The venn diagramme overlap of people who can observe the basic facts, but still think the war should go on, is quite small.

Literally doing the playground "no u". Lemmy.ml isn't sending their best :(
Sorry for using 5-dollar words, english isn't my first language (it's russian, Putin has paid me personally for this interaction) and so sometimes I phrase things weirdly. Personally I'm used to people not speaking a language perfectly, so I try not to shame them for weird language use, but that's just one of the many ways I've been raised better than you. I'd like to thank my mother and yours

Czechoslovakia, that's a bingo! Thank you so much for filling out my bingo board. Sadly this still isn't an answer to my question, you have failed yet again.

So once again you fail to answer the question lmao. Now you're trying to dance around the premise, pricking holes in it, but this too you cannot do. You're talking about "supporting the cause", vague nonsense. You also seem to think that I asked "if you want a country to win in an argument on the internet, why don't you go kill yourself in the war?" Are you dyslexic? Did you learn to read in that weird way where you recognize the shape of words instead of phonics?
I didn't ask "if you support Ukraine..." I asked "If you think the war should continue, despite the fact that the people no longer want to fight it, why don't you go volunteer?"

You keep making up new things, try to read what I have written more slowly. Maybe ask an adult for help.
You say that I imply that "if we support a country, then every individual in that country should fight as well." No, buddy, just no.
I'm happy you've put on your big boy pants and tried your hand at rhetorics 101, but you really need to engage with the words you're presented with rather than the words you'd like for me to have written. If you think a war should continue, despite the fact that the people of the nation you claim to support no longer want the war to continue, then I think it makes logical sense that you go volunteer. I know that if I supported a war to such an extent that I argued against peace, despite the fact the people I allegedly "support" (agree with online) do not want the war to continue, then it would be because I saw this war as something more important than simple territorial warfare, since I think it's cool and good to throw unwilling people into a meat grinder for it. Since I am a "supporter" of this war to such an extent, then I would volunteer. I'm not, but you are, so why aren't you volunteering?

Sure, I support the "ukrainina cause" Slava Ukraini! I also think they should accept the peace deal because the ukrainians do not wish to fight anymore. If you think they shouldn't, despite the fact they no longer wish to fight, then you are, in fact, not supporting their cause. You are supporting more dead ukrainians. If you think this war must continue despite the fact ukrainians do not want it to, then you must think it is of such a moral importance, why then do you not also think it is your moral imperative to go fight for it?

Now answer my question

It strikes me as quite odd that you would be offended about me insisting on wanting an answer. This started out with me asking a question and you then... decided to jump in to not answer it? Of course you're allowed to speak your mind, and I'm allowed to address your inane pathethic attempts at steering the conversation away from it's starting point - To me that question is the whole point of this interaction. You are somehow offended at the fact that I would like to have my question answered, it's really odd. Do you often get mad when people expect that dialogue proceeds in a rational fashion?
I will however do you a solid and address your questions. I recommend that you look at how I go about this concept of "answering a question" which seems to strike such furor within you, and use it as inspiration for the day you yourself find the ability to answer simple queries.

How about you start by acknowledging that Russia is the fascist aggressor in this war, could stop it at any minute by returning to their own territory, and admitting that they're simply the bad guys in this war?

Russia is a capitalist state run by oligarchs. Putin is a homophobe, I hope one day the russian people will be blessed with a government that governs for the people rather than over the people. The reasons for war are more complex than "mustache twirling bad man." Your request here reveals your simplistic worldview of "good guys" and "bad guys", these are not motivations for war.
I do not support Russia, however I am a realist and realise that no war has ever ended by the victorious party packing up and going home just because. Russia has offered a peace treaty and it is clear the ukrainians do not wish to fight anymore. I personally see no reason to continue a war that has already been lost especially not when that war has, as I've taken pains to illustrate, no popular support. I do not agree with the invasion of Ukraine, but I am able to observe and accept material reality, which is that Ukraine has no soldiers, no people willing to fight, it has to force people to go to the front where they die in droves for no gain, and now they have been offered a treaty which would put an end to this bloodshed. I think they should take it because I think the war should end.

You think (this I must assume since you cannot answer a simple question, nor engage with the basic arguments I have thus far presented) that despite the fact that that Ukraine has no soldiers, no people willing to fight, it has to force people to go to the front where they die in droves for no gain, and now they have been offered a treaty which would put an end to this bloodshed, they should not accept peace for some reason. Charitably I assume that people who hold this opinions of yours, hold it because they think the war is important in some way, and not because they lust for the blood of ukrainians. This is where my curiosity lies and where I would like to have it answered: Since people like you believe this war is so important that it must continue, why do you believe it is not important enough for you to go volunteer? You seem to believe Ukraine is a liberal democracy like the ones in the west and that Russia is a fascist dictatorship invading for no good reason except to murder or subjugate every single ukrainian. Therefore Ukraine must not accept a peace deal even though ukrainians do not want to fight. I don't believe that, but if I did, I would go volunteer for Ukraine, since the war would then be so important for me. So how come? How come you can believe that Russia is so bad, so evil, so monstrous, so wrong, yet you do not believe you should go support the country that you think should reject the peace its people are clamoring for?

Answer my question