Babylon 5 is incredible. Its flaws are its strengths.
this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2023
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Well, maybe not the cringey humor.
Zooty zoot zoot to you, too.
I enjoyed it and I give J. Michael Straczyinski a lot of credit for being able to conceive and tell a good story even with some difficult production and casting problems. While the plot can be simplistic there are not a lot of loose threads and there are many interesting characters. I think for the time (the 1990s) it was incredibly ambitious before streaming made more dedicated audience participation possible.
So... On a slight tangent... If you enjoyed Babylon 5, but have never seen Blake's 7, then you've got some essential viewing ahead of you. Shonky sets, dubious costumes, some terrible fight choreography, and some of the best plotting and dialogue going (all credit to Terry Nation). British SciFi at it's best. And the spiritual precursor of all 'plucky group of outlaws on a stolen ship' series (such as Farscape and Lexx).
I will always upvote Blake's 7!
I was absolutely obsessed with Babylon 5 during it’s run, reading up on the Lurker’s Guide before and after every episode. I analyzed every plot detail and theorized about what everything meant and where it was going. I even made a mod for Strange Adventures in Infinite Space around Babylon 5. I just loved that show so much.
Then after some years after it went off the air and I was able to get digital copies of the show, I tried going back through it, and it hadn’t aged as well. The CG is pretty outdated (was great at the time), the writing and dialogue was pretty hokey, but overall I still liked all the characters, even the ones I probably disagreed with politically (I still love Garibaldi’s arc in that show). I still have fond memories of it though, just the first time I remember seeing those sort of season-long story arcs like that in almost any show. It had Trekian problems of the week, but it felt like it was building towards something in the long-term, it was just mind-blowing at the time. So many characters that felt real, who changed over time, and so many memorable lines.
"There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."
I have to confess that I've never been able to get into Babylon 5. I've tried several times starting from the first episode but I've never found myself "sucked in". TBH it has always struck me as political soap opera with lots of makeup.
But as I said - I've never gotten into it, and I've read many times that it is great. So - I really want to like it.
I think I'd be in your debt if you sell me on it - at what point(s) might I be so into this show that I just can't stop watching?
Season 1 is hammy stereotypical action sci-fi like most other contemporary shows, but with quite important world building that is used for all plot points in the rest of the seasons.
So much questionable acting, awkwardly cheap shots, laughable cgi (even with the remaster), and distinctly 90s costume. No two ways around it, you have to accept those parts as a product of it's time. The writing is good from the start, and the acting gets better, as you get hooked on the characters everything takes off.
It fundamentally is a political soap opera with make up, but in a more fantastical way than Suits or House of cards, it's kind of a different thing when the political scheming gets derailed by a planet turning out to be a forgotten superweapon or that the current powers-that-be turn out to be ousted by unknown space magic. It's also a lot more dramatic seeing civilisation crumbling after a series of particularly poor developments.
What I love about Bab5 is that there's always at least three plot arcs, you have the Problem-of-the-day that requires running around and punching someone, you have the factional current issue where someone is building up forces in a way that's noticed in the day, and you have the overarching galactic issue brewing slowly, where planets or governments disappear and unknowable things move in the corner of your eye.
Also, superb story hooking, where a couple of planted background happenings are the pivotal main arc a few seasons later.
It's why I rewatch all episodes every couple of years, so much great weaving, world building, character, faction and universe development that you just don't get to see the first or even fifth time.
Also, Andreas Katsulas turns out to be marvellous actor and his character one of the most interesting in almost any epic story I've seen, heard or read since.
Also, superb story hooking, where a couple of planted background happenings are the pivotal main arc a few seasons later.
Strange new worlds is doing this, as well.
Sorry for the late reply, but I've now watched the two seasons of Strange New Worlds and just can't agree with you.
Strange New Worlds works at establishing plot lines, in the first season telling you a central character plot point and a few episodes later doing an episode around it. Until the J'Gal character plot there aren't even any twists.
What I mean with plot weaving would be something like the Vulcan Archeological Medicine fellowships being a secret Romulan plot (established through the multiple glimpses into what they're studying), or having reconstructed Pike after his premonition so that he can escape it.
And this totally makes sense, Strange New Worlds is a TOS tribute, and those are notorious for being very episodal, with almost no links between episodes outside the main characters.
Either we have different interpretations of plot weaving, or it's extremely subtle that I cant detect it after a rewatch.
Ok @Brainsploosh@lemmy.world - you are absolutely correct - this is an amazing series. I'm gonna confess that it was a very hard slog for me to get through the first 2.5 seasons, but then it just became this neverending stream of "wait... what?!?!? woah!!!". I'm in the second half of season four and I'm kinda blown away. I'm absolutely certain I'll be re-watching it to find some of that weaving you mentioned. Thanks again for your description.
Haha, good things are better shared, I'm happy you gave it another go!
Well - thanks for that - I'm giving it another go. "Long arcs" definitely reel me in :)
Can relate. Had to more or less force myself. But it did click around season 2 or 3 to the point where I think it's one of the very best space operas that has ever been made and most likely ever will be made.
If I recall, season 1 is a lot of setup, with payoff in later seasons. Season 2 is where it starts to take off. During its initial run, I found it totally compulsive viewing.
I enjoyed Babylon but it's not something I revisit often. I feel the same way as you about Battlestar though. I watch it and my mind drifts away mid episode. I want to love it, I think it's a great story but something about the show keeps me from engaging fully. Makes me sad.
You have to just accept the kind of campy look to the show, as well as some of the more questionable acting and dialogue choices. Once you just accept that this will be the presentation, you can focus on the story, which is very insightful and complex. At its heart it's a political drama about American intervention in the Arab-Israeli conflict (never explicitly stated, but it's pretty evident almost immediately), with a shadowy outside threat, presented through a sci-fi lens. Then it adds way more mysticism and fantasy elements as the series progresses. It's a fantastic exploration of human nature, I strongly recommend it.
It left HBO before I could finish the last season. I just got a Tubi account so I can close it out.
Come in on season 2 - the acting of some people in season 1 was Not Good.
Lovely and honest article.
One thing that made B5 so enjoyable for so many of us was The Lurker’s Guide — a website that broke down every episode into what came before, what happened, what it might mean, and included quotes and hints from JMS. We were such fans that I actually printed out the entire website - it’s in a binder with our DVDs.
As deep as the article is, it doesn’t address a few things behind some of the major issues: the first commander had to be replaced because the actor, Michael O’ Hare, was having severe mental/medical issues, kept private for years; the 5th season was a mess partially because the renewal came so late JMS had put some of the planned 5th season into the 4th season, meaning the telepath subplot had to be (unfortunately) expanded, and Claudia Christian had to be replaced because she had already accepted another gig.
But we are going to have to watch it again. So many amazing episodes. Mira Furlan is amazing. The music by Christopher Franke was fabulous (we own many of the soundtrack CDs). And yes, I STILL get teary-eyed listening to the music from the finale.
And the Lurkers Guide is still online! I've been doing the suggested chronological-without-spoilers first time watchthrough and have been reading the guide after every episode. You can tell a lot of the scripts were planned well in advance!
I'm just finishing the last season and it's actually incredible!
Right now it looks like we'll have a couple of decades of Road Warrior (any of the Mad Max series) for a couple of decades, with declining care use and rising cannibalism. And then its up to the roaches, rats and coyotes.
We're going to have to learn some serious Star Trek stuff if we're going to survive the climate crisis and plastic crisis.
I love this show so much, I even went and found the poorly made continuation/movie thing that seems more like an amateur student film project just to have more Babylon 5.
Farscape is another great scifi show that's not really brought up too often.
Farscape is great. Also red dwarf if you're looking for some humor mixed in with plenty of hard sci fi.
Babylon 5 is great so many callbacks and stories that run across the whole series
My thoughts on it is the overall plot was very good but it's aged badly.
Yeah it's turning on 30 years old soon, you have to watch it soon before it gets unbearably bad
Had never heard of this show before, but from what I read in all these comments it'll be enjoyable - thank you everyone!
The usual warnings for newcomers.
(1) There was a made for TV movie pilot called "The Gathering" which was made about two years before the show kicks off. It was used to pitch the show. It was released a few years later. Most people consider it an essential episode #0 if you want to watch the show. It's quite bad. The computer graphics were rendered on a bank of Amiga computers...
(2) the first season, up to about the ~15 episode mark, seems quite hokey. There are important story arc details buried in each episode, despite them seemingly being quite disconnected. By about the last third of the first season, it has its legs.
(3) The graphics, sets, and music improve over time. You just sort of have to imagine the first season as a stage play. Unlike Star Trek which had the budget to do models, B5 was comparatively on a shoestring.
(4) There are cast changes between the pilot and episode one; again at the end of season one; and finally, again at the end of season four. Don't be alarmed.
Great info especially about the movie, thank you! would have missed that.
I'm rewatching it right now and enjoying it. The characters are well-written, the principals were cast well, a lot of recognizable "B" and "C" actors make cameos, I honestly think some of the CGI still works (fight me).