this post was submitted on 25 Nov 2024
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Privacy

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I am a long term GrapheneOS user and would like to talk about it. r/privacy on the redditland blocks custom OS discussions which I think is very bad for user privacy, and I hope this post will be useful to anyone who are in the hunt for better privacy.

Nowadays smartphones are a much bigger threats to our privacy and Desktop systems, and unfortunately manufacturers has designed them to be locked down devices with no user freedom. You can't just "install Linux" on most smartphones and it is horrible. And most preloaded systems spy on us like crazy. That was why I specifically bought a pixel and loaded GOS onto it.

According to https://grapheneos.org/features , they start from base AOSP's latest version, imptoves upon it's security and significantly hardens it. There's hardened_malloc to.prevent against exploitation, disabling lots of debugging features, disabling USB-c data, hardening the Linux kernel and system apps etc. They even block accessing the hardware identifiers of the phone so that apps cannot detect whqt phone you're using. That means with Tor and zero permissions given, apps are anonymous.

Compatibility with apps are best in Custom ROMs but there are still that can't work, especially if they enforce device integrity. Very few apps usually enforce that tho. Also their community isn't the friendliest but you can get help. Just don't try and engage too much or have too many debates.

Anyone else here use GrapheneOS, or any other privacy ROMs? What is your experience? Do you disagree on any point? Let's have a discussion!

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[–] N0x0n@lemmy.ml 46 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

I post someone's comment on a controversial topic about google and GOS. I saved it because that's exactly how I feel.


Step 1 of installing GrapheneOS for de-googling your life: Buy a Google Pixel phone

Look - I know, I know. I get it. Google allows you to unlock the bootloader while maintaining the phone's unique and excellent hardware security features. The argument makes sense. It is compelling. Other manufacturers do not give you this freedom. I am not arguing about that. I have a Pixel phone running GrapheneOS myself.

However... It is just so very obviously ironic that one needs to trust Google's hardware and purchase a Google product to de-google their life through GrapheneOS. I think that it is a perfectly valid position for someone to raise their eyebrows, laugh, and remain skeptical of the concept either because they do not want to support Google at all, or because they simply will not trust Google's hardware.

The reason why I think that this is "controversial" is because I have seen multiple instances of someone pointing out the irony, followed by someone getting defensive about it and making use of the technical security arguments in an attempt to patch up the irony.

https://mander.xyz/comment/15084264

[–] schmurian@lsmu.schmurian.xyz 33 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I think buying a Pixel phone second hand solves this issue and reduces a little e-waste at the same time.

[–] spookedintownsville@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

This. I never buy a Pixel new.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 23 points 3 weeks ago

If your objective is to punish Google, or to have nothing to do with Google. I completely agree with you using a pixel phone just doesn't make any sense. You shouldn't do it

If your objective is to have the most security possible... Then you should install graphene on a Pixel phone.

[–] Darth_Vader__@lemmy.world 22 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

Yeah it's ironic but what is the alternative? At least we CAN remove Google's known spyware from the device, and there's no evidence of firmware level spying. If you get Samsung, or some chinese crap, you can't remove Google period, and you might get spied by the manufacturer as a cherry on top. There is no way to have a perfect solution, well unless Samsung starts to provide Custom ROM support or something.

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[–] Tinkerer@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

This is exactly why I don't have graphene os, the irony of having to support google is too much for me call me paranoid but i also dont trust them with the hardware piece either lol. I've been running lineage os without gapps and its honestly great, updates and patches are every few weeks, super stable and awesome.

[–] Darth_Vader__@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I assume you're using it with bootloader unlocked. The issue is somehow some malware injects your phone and roots it, it can just install itself as a system service and just live there and you'll never know. The security feature that protects against it is disabled once bootloader is unlocked.

Also I've heard that LineageOS has not all security updates present since some firmware updates needs to be provided by the specific manufacturer. For Pixel, Google provides it and GOS uses it.

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[–] muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee 23 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Yep. Been using it for about 2 years now. So far no issues except amazon prime but they gave me adds sufficiently annoying that i finally got around to setting up jellyfin. Been able to solve pretty much all my issues with dr gpt.

Every time i see someone posting about a new mobile phone exploit i get immense joy scrolling down through comments and finding someone posting the fact that graphene patched it 3 years ago and recommended a patch to google who have yet to implement it into base android.

[–] Darth_Vader__@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Cellebrite and the new Grayjack or something both has zero ways to crack a GOS phone 🔥

[–] kyub@discuss.tchncs.de 22 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Using it since many years on many Pixels and loving it.

Main pros: zero bloat, efficient, highly secure and highly private (about as private and secure as it can get on any smartphone), and it's an Android without any of Android's typical weaknesses (privacy issues, bloat, etc.). You get to utilize the advantages of Google (its security) and completely avoid the disadvantages (its many privacy issues). You get to use all the advantages of an Android mobile OS while completely avoiding all of its disadvantages. It's like getting your cake and eating it too. You're much better off in terms of security and privacy than almost(?) all other smartphone users. According to leaked documents, Cellebrite for example can't crack GrapheneOS on Pixels at all. They can crack almost any other smartphone if they have physical access to it. Most smartphones are really easy for them to crack. iPhones may pose some trouble depending on model/OS. And Graphene on Pixel is the literal brick wall. And even on top of that it has tons of great security features, like auto-reboot after X hours of inactivity, charge-only-mode for USB-C when locked, distress/duress PIN entry to immediately wipe the phone, many things like that. On the privacy side it's looking great as well: Some folks have analyzed Graphene's network traffic and there's zero privacy issues from the OS or its built-in apps. And the few connections it does make (for updates and so on) are all documented and work exactly like they documented them, and they only transmit the exact least amount of necessary data without anything beyond that (guess what - that's super rare). And on top of that there's even more great privacy features, some of which are invisible but well thought-out, for example any SUPL request goes through a Graphene proxy server first (configurable) which strips all personally-identifiable data from the request and then redirects it to your provider's SUPL server (which is most likely Google's SUPL server in the end). I'm seriously impressed by the quality of the GrapheneOS project. Maybe you don't realize how good and rare such things are nowadays. Also the documentation is very good and actually answers most of your questions and doesn't contain any marketing blurb. The social media feeds and forums are a great source of info as well. On top of all that it's even easy to install GrapheneOS.

Main cons: it's only available on Google Pixel phones, so if you truly despise Google and don't want to buy or use anything from them, it's not the right device/OS for you (or maybe buy it used?). However, the reason GrapheneOS is on Pixel is purely a technical one: Pixels do offer very high hardware based security already (probably the most, although iPhones have good hardware-based security as well. As is known, Apple tends to be produce good quality hardware, not quite so good software) as well as a very high degree of "platform neutrality", i.e. it's supported by Google to flash a different OS on it or use more advanced tools like adb without any sort of tinkering or unnecessary danger involved. Also you don't have to register to unlock your phone or anything, you only need to be online once to enable the OEM unlocking feature (I think this is because Google needs your IMEI to check whether the phone is carrier-locked (cannot ever be OEM unlocked) or can be unlocked, and they will immediately receive some device data including the IMEI as soon as you go online with the preinstalled Android OS once [of course they will receive some more device data than just the IMEI]), so it's best to not insert your SIM yet (and not do anything with the preinstalled OS) before you've installed GrapheneOS on your new Pixel. Do the OEM unlocking step on WiFi only, best on a public WiFi so Google has much less of a chance to identify you based on your IP or related data. Then install Graphene, then insert your SIM and start using your new phone. Other cons exist but they're rare or pretty much irrelevant in daily use. If you have to hear them, read an older post by me about some potential downsides: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19867254/12069767

[–] theskyisfalling@lemmy.dbzer0.com 20 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

Ive used it for around a year and a half and never had any issues. My banking app stopped working after about 8 months but I just log in via a browser and it hasn't effected my life at all.

For anyone considering the move here is a list of bank apps and their current working status as I know that is a big consideration people worry over.

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[–] SpiceDealer@lemmy.world 17 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

I'm pretty sure that every Android Lemmy user has a Custom ROM installed on their device. Currently daily driving GrapheneOS on my Pixel 7 Pro.

[–] mayhair@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Not me unfortunately ... I used to have a Samsung Galaxy S9+ with an unofficial port of LineageOS. Nowadays I'm using a Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra with the stock OS.

Maybe a Pixel should be my next phone, so that I get proper support for most custom ROMs.

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[–] Object@sh.itjust.works 15 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (9 children)

Other than Starbucks app and VoLTE stuff, I haven't encountered an issue yet. Somehow all my banking apps work. The profile feature alone makes it worth it. They also recently increased the number of profiles that can be run in parallel, too.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

How do you like the cross profile notifications? What's your workflow? Do you have multiple profiles active at the same time?

[–] Object@sh.itjust.works 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I have one "Daily" profile where I keep thing I don't mind showing others, and many other private profiles. Each private profile has a unique environment I find myself using every now and then, so it's a bit like VMs. For example, one profile has VPN on 24/7, another with Orbot, and another with a non-functional VPN (which is basically no network). It enforces the rule so that I don't fuck things up by accident. Primary profile is just a package manager for me.

I have multiple profile active, but it's usually just for long downloads. It was annoying whenever I go back to a profile expecting some long job to be done, only to find out it got killed 10 seconds after starting it. Or worse, finding out my Daily profile got killed.

I don't get many cross profile notifications because I almost never receive one outside of the Daily profile.

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[–] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 14 points 3 weeks ago

I am. It's good. Don't have any issues just huge compliments to the team.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 14 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (18 children)

https://www.privacyguides.org/en/android/distributions/#aosp-derivatives

https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm

I am a GOS user, it just works, so I don't really think about it. It's very nice to have storage and contact scopes.

My only complaint is I can't share a VPN over hotspot or tethering, which is very useful for a travel router device (to make all traffic look like it's coming from the phone). (Lineage and calyxos have this)

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[–] agile_squirrel@lemmy.ml 11 points 3 weeks ago

I've been using it for just over 2 years now and am very happy with it. I am curious about CalyxOS though. While I don't think I'd switch I'd be interested in a technical deep dive comparison between the 2.

[–] Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml 9 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Pixel 6a with GrapheneOS here. Been using for about a year and a half, and loving it.

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[–] Charger8232@lemmy.ml 8 points 3 weeks ago

I have the pleasure of using GrapheneOS. I can't imagine using anything else. It was also the first (widely used) custom Android distribution to adopt Android 15. As far as I can tell, almost no others support Android 15 yet.

[–] R3D4CT3D@midwest.social 8 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

i really want to make the switch but need to figure out how to steal a pixel phone bc i sure as hell ain’t paying for one

[–] sfjvvssss@lemmy.world 18 points 3 weeks ago
[–] communism@lemmy.ml 8 points 3 weeks ago

Last 4 or so phones have all been GrapheneOS (I'm not buying new phones all the time to be clear; I use phones till they break; I'm just a long-time user) and yeah I've really had no problems to speak of. I currently have a separate profile with Play services for certain apps, and also just to isolate non-privacy-respecting apps that I have to have installed for whatever reason.

Almost all the apps I use are FOSS apps who are aware that a significant amount of their userbase will be using various AOSP forks so I've not run into any app compatibility issues. Even back when I used banking apps, I'd used 4 different banks' apps on GrapheneOS and all of them worked completely fine. Now I don't have a banking app because I won't install proprietary software unless I actually have to for some reason, and I can bank on the web just fine.

[–] Cris16228@lemmy.today 7 points 3 weeks ago (15 children)

I would love to buy a pixel to install GrapheneOS but ain't no way I'm giving google money and I don't know where I can buy a brand new pixel. There are currently 3 apps that scare me and not sure if they're even working on GOS and one is my bank app

[–] Nednarb44@lemmy.world 18 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Getting a used/refurbished one doesn't really give them anything, and actually prevents them from getting data on the next person who would have gotten the used phone and used the stock OS

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[–] crimsoncobalt@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Check out Swappa. They usually have plenty of phones in various condition to pick from.

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[–] Darth_Vader__@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

Regarding banking app, check privsec.dev 's list.

Regarding Pixel, don't see it as giving money to Google, see it as payingnfor good hardware.

[–] Cris16228@lemmy.today 4 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I'm still paying a shitty company for good hardware. I will see if I can find a good refurbished, otherwise I'll pay the hardware with money and not my data. Fuck google

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[–] jjlinux@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago

I've been on GrapheneOS for 4 years or so. I've tried CalyxOS every now and then, but always end up coming back to GrapheneOS. I find it simple, private, secure and free of BS. CalyxOS does come with some stuff preinstalled, which doesn't really appeal to me, and I trust the sandboxes Google Play model much more that MicroG.

About the devs, I really haven't had any issues that I have not been able to resolve myself, so my interaction with the is non-existing. I have read some posts with interactions with them, and they do seem to be hostile towards anything that is not 100% aligned with their train of thought, which I find stupid, to say the least. But regardless of how rude they may be, I feel GOS literally has no competition in the Android landscape in terms of privacy and security.

[–] DollarColonial@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)
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[–] Samsy@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

I was a long time lineageOS user and love the freedom of changing anything. I switched to grapheneOS and like it, but miss some features, that are just pointless and not relatable: no full AMOLED dark mode - the devs said the battery savings between dark and pure dark isn't relevant. and the other thing is: why is the white bar on the bottom not removable?

Because of these things I switched back to lineageOS and realised how dumb it is because of two optical features. GOS is definitely worth to look over two missing features and I switched back to GOS.

Anyway the most interesting transition from an lineage user to an grapheneOS user is, you realise that root isn't useful and more risk than fun.

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[–] Neptr@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 3 weeks ago

My recommendation is GOS if you care about out of box experience and using gapps, DivestOS if you care about degoogling and removal of proprietary code. Both are hardened.

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 5 points 3 weeks ago

I have used it in the past on a Google Pixel 3A, and I've used Lineage OS for many years as well.

[–] ouch@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Personally for me the most important thing in Android is automatic native call recording. If GrapheneOS gets that, I will consider buying a Google Pixel device.

Also, banking and other apps should stop using Play Integrity API.

[–] egerlach@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

It's okay if they use the Play Integrity API, they just need to also whitelist the keys that sign the official Graphene OS ROMs. Not that I expect they'll do that, mind you...

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[–] piyuv@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

Do you have difficulties running pokemon go (if you do play it) and/or banking apps?

[–] Grippler@feddit.dk 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

None of my banking apps or my government ID 2FA app work in GOS, not even with sandboxed google play services. I had to go back to stock android since these are essential to my everyday life. Huge bummer since I replaced my old broken phone specifically with a pixel for GOS.

[–] Darth_Vader__@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Banking apps works for me, they have a list at privsec.dev check that out first.

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[–] DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 weeks ago

I am waiting for the LineageOS port for my SM-A536B.

[–] Gebruikersnaam@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Is the camera still good on Graphene? It is pretty much the only thing that holds my Oneplus 6T back.

[–] czech@lemm.ee 9 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

The camera is fine but I prefer to use googles camera app. Both work.

[–] ByteBovine@lemmy.ml 11 points 3 weeks ago

You can even install Google Camera app without google play services and deny it Internet access. All works fine.

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[–] joanne@aussie.zone 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I've been using it for a few months. Very happy with it. Minimalistic initial setup, gives you the feeling of control as well as privacy, bank apps work splendidly... an effortless transition, I say as somebody who previously used iPhone but wasn't tied into the ecosystem.

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