this post was submitted on 22 Jul 2023
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Memes

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[–] Rubezahl@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I am from Eastern Europe and I share this sentiment when I see anyone from the West defending communism. The issue is complicated but, to put it bluntly:

No, Timothy, communism didn't fail in Eastern Europe because it was implemented wrongly. This is a very complicated topic but the tldr summary is "It is a broken idea, it did not work and it will never work. The natural and logical outcome of any attempt at Marxism is a bloodbath followed by autocracy."

That being said, communism isn't the only way to achieve a more equitable society. You have social democracy (in Lennin's words - communism's greatest adversary); organized labour movements; collectivist anarchism; communitariasm, etc.

Communism, as applied in the 20th century, violently fought against or oppressed all of these movements and is incompatible with any of them.

Not to mention that in most countries nowadays orthodox communists have been hugely discredited for excusing the Russian war of annihilation against the Ukrainian people.

In conclusion, if you live in the USA or Western Europe and you are unhappy with how corporate greed has ruined society, don't look to communism for answers. There are many other proposed solutions out there - go and research these. Communism is very well known, which makes it easily accessible to people who want change - but it is never, ever the solution.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago
[–] onionbaggage@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (11 children)

Well we're not praising fascism and corruption.

[–] ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Eeehhhh there are plenty of Tankies around here that unironically simp for Stalin and Mao, (never Pol Pot for some reason though), and those regimes were frought with corruption and are often called "red fascism," so I wouldn't be so quick to say "we" here. "You" maybe, "me" definitely, but "we" is too strong of a word when there are plenty of people doing just that on lemmygrad right now, and lemmy.ml being a marxist instance some there as well (though the refugees mostly drowned them out now).

[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Mao and Stalin (though to a noticably lesser extent) actually had insightful things to say though. Mao's essays on epistemology are genuinely really fantastic. And that can be true alongside all of the show trials and sparrow murder which was genuinely really fucking bad.

Pol Pot meanwhile admitted to never having really ever read Marx, and his faction of the Communist Party of Cambodia was more concerned about Khmer ultranationalism and anti-Vietmamese sentiment that had been brewing over the course of French colonialism, then with anything to do with building socialism.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that we ought to take a nuanced, grounded view of historic socialisms that accounts for their success and failures, and doesn't fall into either mindless exoneration of awful shit, nor reflexively screeching "TANKIE TANKIE!!!" Every time anything vaguely socialist oriented comes up in discussion.

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[–] Upgrade2754@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Making this meme took longer than opening a book to understand what communism actually is.

What everyone points to as "communism" shares more in common with capitalism than anything else. They had authoritarian rulers and a small wealthy class that lords over the rest of the populace.

There is nothing "worker owned" about these examples and it only serves to spread FUD about moving away from capitalism towards a more human centric economy

[–] RidcullyTheBrown@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

There is no such thing as pure capitalism.

[–] samokosik@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago

As a someone whose country belonged to the western bloc, I can relate xD

[–] nanoUFO@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

Communism isn't the issue the same way Capitalism isn't the issue, the issue is rich people abusing working class and poor people. Removing democracy from these systems just make them absolutely horrid in the long run. Also China isn't communist it's state capitalist dictatorship.

[–] Darkard@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The vague idea of getting the same as everyone else, while not having to actually make the effort, appeals to sheltered and unappreciative western kids who feel oppressed because they have to put down thier entertainment device and do thier maths homework.

Borderline champagne socialists

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[–] varzaman@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

Lol half the comments are “idk what you’re talking about”. A good chunk are proving OP right, and the rest is America hate.

Exactly like on Reddit. Literally isn’t any different here.

[–] CthulhuOnIce@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

comment section frustratingly filled with McCarthy-brained liberals who have never critically examined their preconceptions about communism

[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I guess I just really don't understand the draw. Communism is a nice thought, until actual people are involved. People are corruptible, which is why communism is seen as utopian. It's an ideal that only works under perfect circumstances.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I guess I just really don’t understand the draw. ~~Communism~~Capitalism is a nice thought, until actual people are involved. People are corruptible, which is why ~~communism~~capitalism is seen as utopian. It’s an ideal that only works under perfect circumstances.

[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Yes, I don't disagree, except far more people benefit from our form of capitalism, and you don't see the death numbers you do from the absolute rule that communism demands.

This isn't to say there isn't any death due to capitalism. Or any strife, just certainly not on the same scale. I would say out biggest death toll comes at the hands of our military-industrial-complex being capitolistic.

The problem is, there's nothing better yet.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Add up chattel slavery, Trail of Tears, proxy wars, not-so-proxy wars, the general condition of the M-I-C you've mentioned, the general plight of the Global South, etc etc etc, and get back to me. I'm not sure the advantage is so definitive as you assert. "Externalities", the economists call them.

[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It 100% does not even come close. Not saying those deaths weren't terrible or unavoidable, absolutely not.

But also, you can't blame a capitolistic society for trail of tears or any other mass genocide that came before that. We didn't become capitolistic until 10 years after Trail of Tears ended.

Edit to add: granted, that doesn't say much about how Native Americans were treated post TOT. Though, it's certainly through capitalism that Indian casinos have become so successful. 245 tribes own casinos today, all of which rake in the funds.

[–] thevoyagekayaking@lemmy.nz 0 points 1 year ago

Oh man, Lemmygrad will not like this one bit.

[–] PASAQUALIA@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago

It's funny because if you look at living standards in eastern Europe during communism's peak they were wayyy better than they are now

[–] Wisi_eu@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago (16 children)
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[–] Azzu@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because the single only way to do communism is how the UdSSR did it, there's no other way.

And of course it's only possible to either agree with the whole of a specific ideology, or none of it. There's no "good parts of communism" or "bad parts of capitalism" it's only ever all good or all bad.

Politics is the mind-killer.

[–] Spinnyl@lemmy.today 1 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Because the single only way to do communism is how the UdSSR did it, there's no other way.

It is, because one bad apple spoils the bunch if you don't send them to gulags. Communism on a large scale is not self stabilizing unless everyone is ideologically 100% onboard.

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