this post was submitted on 02 Dec 2024
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The sentiment was not bad. TSMC is a shining example of how fab subsidies can be a good idea, and Intel's fabs going under is bad and basically irreplaceable. Like... I am still happy with my tax dollars taking the risk, and Intel was clearly trying to right the ship when CHIPS was conceived.
But theres clearly rot in Intel. Thats a big difference I guess, as TSMC was built from the ground up (in a time where that was possible) while Intel is already weighed down with its sins.
If we give them billions of dollars, then why are we not taking equity position?
You do understand that shareholders were transferred 100billion dollars over last 20 years?
Why is us taxpayers bailing out their position?
Why Intel needs cash, why doesn't intel issue shares and gut the shareholder?
Eitherway, I am happy that you are satisfied with this transfer. I am not.
Where do you get the 100 billion USD amount from?
AFAIK Intel has received less than $10 billion.
sharebuy back is cash transfer to shareholders.
CHIPS act allocated about 34b to be transferred to the corporation.
That is simply not true, and Intel has only gotten less than $10 billion from CHIPS.
AFAIK they've actually only received 1 billion of that.
Do you understand what a share buyback is?
Original CHIPS allocation was 30-50b, looks like that was a total, intel was allocated 8.5b
https://www.theverge.com/24166234/chips-act-funding-semiconductor-companies
That's just this package Intel among other companies receive other substantial state aid thought, just to be clear within US but also outside.
For example, Germany is giving intel money too lol
I absolutely do, the company buys it's own stock.
So if the company has a 1000 dollars, and buy for a 1000 dollars shares, it changes nothing for the remaining stockholders.
And the one who sold his stock, just got market value, nothing more nothing less.
The company now has a 1000 dollars less, but there is also for a 1000 dollars less stock. So the inner value per remaining stock remains the same.
Originally when the stock was sold, the money went to the company, when the company buys it back, it's much like paying back a debt. But apart from that, Intel hasn't done any buybacks for more than 3 years.
https://ycharts.com/companies/INTC/stock_buyback
Maybe you misunderstood how it works?
so intel spends 15 years buying back 100b in stock and ran the company into the ground...
now taxpayer is transferring money to them...
where is the disconnect here?
Oh please...
so you have no rebuttal to my original thesis?
This is not about an arbitrary thesis, but about FACTS!
As I've already shown, Intel was ONLY buying back when they actually had profits.
And buying back stock is NOT a gift to stockholders.
The CHIPS thing is a strategic political decision, you originally claimed was many times more than it actually is.
Obviously you are so stuck in your prejudiced opinions based on speculation and false information, that you don't care even when you find you had the facts wrong.
The CHIPS agreement is not a gift, but a 2 way agreement that requires Intel to make heavy investments inside USA, and the money haven't been paid out yet, except for an initial amount that is only a fraction of the total agreement.
It's not like the Biden administration just throws free money at companies as you seem to think.
Now Trump may decide to do just that, because he is corrupt as hell. But that will be another debate.
Intel wasted 100 billion dollars and failed to invest into R&D
US taxpayer along with German one is transferring cash to Intel to pay for CapEx without taking equity position.
Money is fungible... so US taxpayer is bailing the shareholder who got paid out already.
Are you really still going to justify share buybacks were justified? They ruined the company lol
FACTS is 🤡 capitalism here
that's because intel refused to take the terms US government atached to the money. CEO went on fake news crying about and he is now gutted because a brain dead idiot. At least feds using some common sense here. What they really should be doing is taking equity stake and get a seat on the Board.
You can't trust these parasite to run industry with national security impact.
Cheers ;)
No I don't generally like share buybacks.
Those are the rules we are working under. If you don't like the rules, that's another debate.
But that would void the entire agreement, making your entire claim nothing but fluff and hot air.
OK, so who can be trusted more? A 100% government controlled system, like the one that crashed the Soviet Union?
Corpos only doing this because normies larp the fake news headline they pay for as "investment"
this is not an investment, any adult person can quickly figure out that giving free cash to these parasites doesn't make much sense esp when they waste this money as straight cash transfer to the owner class
yet every day i have to spell this out on here because everyday there is somebody shilling corpo talking points as gospel.
You have no idea who you are talking to. I'm a social democrat from Denmark, except a bit to the left of that. But communism doesn't work, regulated capitalism does.
Many things suck in USA, but CHIPS and helping Intel is a long way away from where the real problems are.
That's your opinion at best.
Intel has show that they are unable to manage their cash position why should tax payer reward a failed executive team and BoD?
Then even if we are gonna infuse intel with taxpayer cash, why should not US Treasury take an equity position for their "risk" as any normal investor would?
I understand why that may seem like a fair solution on the surface, but it's because that would make Intel a part federally owned company, and in general it is avoided to have publicly owned companies competing against private companies. Which in this case would be Nvidia, AMD, Comcast, Qualcomm etc. It's a huge conflict of interest, and would easily be seen as unfair competition, possibly also by trade partners.
There might also be legal issues, internally in USA, and with WTO and other trade agreements.
So it's kind of opening a can of worms that is better left closed. It's not that I don't understand where you are coming from, but trust me, regulation is way better than a government taking control.
Intel may collapse, but then maybe one of the previously mentioned companies may pick up the remains, and built it better. This is why we need to have free competition.
I am not aware of any law on the books that prevents US government from taking equity stake in a corporation. German states take equity in companies. China and Russia have straight majority owned mega corps.
US took equity stake in GM when it bailed them out.
I know there was a huge bruhaha about it but it was just that owner class refusing to face the music for their fucks up.
Nothing is stopping treasury from making tidy profit from their investment like they did with GM.
Current system enables parasitic behavior from owners and executive teams while life for for bottom 80% of taxpayers has been shite... yet every time owner class needs bail out, these people have to pay for it.
Intel is just a portion of the CHIPS Act funding and they're the largest fab in the US. Why wouldn't they be included in it when the whole point is to generate more domestic manufacturing rather than "trying to pick winners and losers?" Even TSMC got some of the money, and they're already dominating the market, which arguably makes even less sense to award them taxpayer dollars.
Intel is topic of discussion here... none of them should be getting this money unless it is a market rate financing or equity position.
I don't understand how we got to a position where people are shilling corpo's interest.
Do you ever shill maternity leave this hard?
How is giving corpos money capitalist or free market? We can't provide adequate social policy for taxpayers because "no money" but when corpo needs a bail outs, cash just gets transferred, tax credits or incentives are provided. NO PROBLEM.
Are you employed by Intel or own stock?