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I think what everyone needs to realize is that it's already too late. It's been too late and it was too late months ago. There are no other options. The world will suck but will most definitely suck less than one being led by Trump. You have two effective choices, vote Biden or don't. It's unfortunately all we have at this point.
With that attitude. They could literally put ANYONE in there (other than Hillary) and they will win. ANYONE. Doesn't matter how late it is. A vast majority HATE Trump and are embarrassed of Biden. Just give them someone they aren't completely ashamed of. That's it. That's all they have to do. They don't need years of campaigning. Just be able to complete a coherent sentence and don't be a racist bigot. That is how low the bar actually is right now. Hell, Hillary would probably win this go around.
Who?
Kamala? She'll lose to Trump.
Newcom? Not even liked in California.
Pete Buttigieg? LGBT rights are being wiped out right now because a huge upswing in recent homophobia and you think an openly gay candidate has a chance?
You need to start listing names if you want this discussion to be taken seriously. There's a reason why Biden was chosen in the first place, because no one could list a better choice. The same problem exists today.
People are surprisingly creative at being ashamed of Democrats. But are never ashamed of Trump. At some point, you need to just stop being so ashamed at the Democrat's current choice: Biden.
I recognize this is a tough time, but you need to seriously start listing names. I'm not a Democrat so I'm not going to be at the primary or convention or whatever. But I would like to see a strong Democrat party so that I can confidently vote against Trump in November. I don't care if its Biden, Pete or whoever honestly. But this gnashing and wailing when you can't even deliver a name in your post is annoying to me.
Literally every one of those names is one I would vote for if put on the ballot. The bar is that low. It is dangerously low, they could run anyone and people would show up to vote, red flags or not. We're mostly interested in taking a loan to pay the piper at this point, a future catastrophe can be dealt with after we deal with the current catastrophe.
Yeah, but you'd vote for Biden too.
The question isn't about who you or I'd vote for. The question is who'd "Joe Moderate" would vote for?
And spoiler alert: "Joe Moderate" isn't exactly a feminist or LGBT ally. "Joe Moderate" is the various citizens of Arizona, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Michigan who flipped from Red to Blue in 2020.
So you're saying Joe Moderate is going to vote for a Female Governor? An openly gay politician? Or the California man who is proudly pushing ACCII to force people to buy Electric Cars? I don't think so.
Fuck sake, why do you have to be right?
My immediate response was "well anyone who is paying attention absolutely would vote for one of them given the alternatives of Trump and Biden" but that's exactly the point, most people aren't paying enough attention. I can't even argue with that. And the people whose vote we have to court the most are the fence sitters who definitely especially aren't paying proper attention. Fuck.
I don't even have more to add to that, now I'm just depressed. Because you're right, I WOULD vote for Biden anyway even if I hate it, I said so myself, so I'm not even the target audience here. And Joe Moderate is going to ratchet us three clicks further right just in order to attempt preventing even worse.
On some level I definitely already knew all this but I have to say this is throwing it all into some pretty stark light.
Rest assured, Biden's methodology has reached across the aisle and really solidified my support for him. I'm not liberal in the slightest and I recognize I'm probably a minority of people who considers themselves "conservative". But Biden's approach did reach out to me in a way that no other Democrat has.
I think you're underestimating Biden.
That's where my confusion comes in. I really don't think Trump did very well on that stage, and you should instead be talking about how Trump literally defended January 6th to your cohort. Instead of a few missed lines and typical Biden blunders.
Biden always sucked at these debate settings. Yes, he's older and even worse at it, but Biden wasn't really that good in 2020 either. None of this shit is new to Biden voters.
Liberals really go hyperbolic and freak out at little things. Yall should learn from the Conservatives and I dunno... put a bit of Trust in the leader yall chose? Republicans have put too much faith in Trump, but Democrats consistently put too little faith in their leaders (and this entire episode of people calling on Biden to step down / be replaced is a continuation of this Democrat tradition).
So Trump is a charismatic liar / Reality TV Star who uses his literal WWE experience to form a bullying debate style that's popular amongst the US Public. You already knew that, right? How else did you think this would go? It went like this last time in 2020.
Is Joe Moderate going to vote for an old man that can easily be legally declared incompetent to manage his own life, let alone an entire country? I doubt it.
Joe Biden stumbled but what the hell?
Trump was the one talking in circles about immigrants and was literally unable to respond to the moderator's questions.
Biden's age is showing, but Trump's brain is turning into cheese. The difference is that Republicans proudly rally behind their cheese-brain candidate while yall scardy-cats backstab Biden the first chance yall get.
Pretty sure Biden was asked about abortion rights and went on a rant about a woman murdered by an immigrant and then trailed off into nothingness.
The entirety of the 2nd half of the "Debate" had Trump talking about how Social Security is ruined by immigrants. Medicare ruined by immigrants. January 6th is ruined by immigrants.
It was some fucking nonsense. And somehow, I go online and not a single Democrat in a discussion is pointing out this severe weakness of Trump.
Because everyone, including his own base, knows he is a liar. It isn't new and is honestly exhausting to talk about. Nobody fucking cares anymore. People are either not voting for him or they have already decided to disassociate from reality. Trump is too polarizing and Biden will not pull any votes from Trump. Biden needs to pull in people that are on the fence between voting for Biden or not voting at all. Debates will not pull anyone from Trump and are a waste of time. Unless he can do something in a debate that can convince fringe people to show up to vote, debates will only hurt him. And it very much hurt him. Now people realize the guy who could barely complete a sentence when he was 77 didn't miraculously get better before he turned 81.
And yet talking about Biden's advanced age is new and not exhausting to talk about?
Because let me tell you one thing: the discussion you've chosen to get worked up about, plays to your political opponent.
I'm not talking about his "Advanced age", I'm talking about his inability to complete a coherent sentence. Also, I'm not sure who you are referring to being my political opponent. I am against a fucking criminal being president AND I am against a senile, demented, corpo being president. They are both my "political opponents" . If people keep falling in line, they will keep putting trash forward. I will vote against the (convicted) criminal in November. But I will not stop bitching loudly about the trash they give us. I'm not going to shut up because I aM sCaReD of TrUmP. That is all they have to count on. The democrats have already lost and I want them to know why.
Sure sure.
So who's your pick for President? Start listing names. Lets see if you get any traction.
I'm a Republican FYI. But I am an anti-Trump Republican. Do you think you can list a name of someone that both you and I'd vote for?
I am a hard left liberal, me and you will never voluntarily vote for the same person.
Are you telling me you will vote for Biden in his current state over Kamala or Newsom? Newsom I get. Even his own state doesn't like him. I don't like either of them, far too center for me, but I would take them over Biden currently. I am curious who there are more of, Republicans turned against Trump that are willing to vote for Bubble blowing Biden just to make sure Trump loses, but won't vote for Kamala, or gen z ers and millennials who may or may not vote, hate Trump, but just realized the other option is literally a potato so why vote anyway, we're fucked either way. Because I feel like the last one is far more common. Just give them someone sentient and they will show up to vote.
A vote for Biden is practically a vote for Kamala, so Kamala is something I've already accepted. I don't think it will do much favors though because she's much more divisive and I know plenty of racists who will NOT vote for Kamala and actively vote for Trump instead. So its not so much me you have to worry about Kamala, but some other fence-sitters I know of.
If yall Democrats don't think Biden is going to last all 4 years, then its all Kamala in the long run anyway.
You're going to lose Michigan over Advance Clean Cars II, which is so extreme its even banned hybrids by 2035 (despite the fact that many hybrids have more environmental friendliness than cars like Hummer EV).
There's a lot of stupid here, and honestly Biden has handled the situation far better and more reasonably than many Democratic Governors on issues like this.
His clean car act would have a lot harder time passing nationally than in California. Either way, whatever law California makes regarding vehicles is what the entire country ends up following since they are the biggest market. So it's already done. And he is hated nationally because of it already, so yeah, not him. I agree with a push for EV for new cars. But I own a classic, and my current cars are gassers, I've used a couple evs on the regular and they have gotten a LOT better recently. But they are not quite there yet battery wise for trucks and bigger vehicles. Hopefully the auto companies rush to satisfy this requirement will spark some serious innovation over the next decade so we can REALLY start filling the landfills with old batteries that will end up being a bigger problem than the smog. My next car will be an EV, but it will be a while before I can get an EV truck practical for towing my trailer for work or my trailer to camp.
Yeah, I thought that last cycle, but it turns out they have no issue with him being incoherent.
I am done with my rant now. My rage over this situation is because a lot of people over the last 5 years refused to aknowlage Bidens issues. If you ever said .... hey guys? You see a problem here? They tell you to shut up or we'll get Trump, he just has a stutter. Now all the sudden everyone is surprised Pikachu face. The democrats have had 6 years to find someone else but they decide to pander to the center when there is a lot more people further to the left that have been disenfranchised, but those people to the left are not profitable to pander to.
I agree with more environmentally friendly regulations because I'm a moderate Republican.
But EVs are not necessarily something I can get behind. The EV Hummer emits more carbon than a normal ICE Honda Civic. When you "Democrats" are so blinded by your EV love that you start harming the country and causing more carbon pollution from your 8000lb inefficient EVs... and yet write the laws to encourage them anyway, it becomes blatantly obvious that yall have also just been captured by the EV manufacturers rather than actually caring about the environment anymore.
A serious environmental bill would be... well... like Biden's bill. Something I can get behind and support because its actually based on environmental standards rather than blatantly handing out money to EV manufacturers.
Biden has proven himself to be... well not a conservative... but at least someone who cares about the fundamentals of the regulations he pushes. He's not someone I can 100% agree with, but he's far better of a candidate than pretty much every other Democrat I've seen.
If yall are going to push environmental standards, at least have them make sense. With how Newsom pushed his ACCII standard, its utterly shit.
I agree that Biden doesn't sound good on stage. But there's actions, regulations, and details with how Biden actually governs. These details are far better than many other politicians.
In any case, if the Democrats have lost faith in Biden, figure out a replacement before you get rid of him. He's not as bad as the mass media thinks. There's reasons why the far-right are thinking that the mass-media is "tricking them", because we all see that Biden is actually someone who is moderate enough to see the details and nuances of the laws. But obviously, Biden can't win this without Democrats support either, so whatever. Do what you want.
It seems to me, from my more conservative/moderate perspective, that your best chance is to stick with Biden. But I don't have a pulse on what the left feels overall.
Definitely don't cut Biden out for Kamala. Instead, just run Kamala more as a strong VP (possibly Presidential) candidate. People will be asking for more questions about Kamala moving forward.
The plan for "Kamala" is that Biden resigns in January 2025 after the election. Its something everyone would innately understand (Biden stays just for the rest of the election, but we get Kamala). Its the underlying assumption of most voters anyway.
I think that's your next best bet. Because I don't think Kamala can actually run and succeed on the top of the ticket. So having a bit of that weird indirection could be the last push you need to get the more racist to vote for her (albeit indirectly).
Yes, Kamala, Newsom, who the fuck ever. Biden isn't on this ticket because there was nobody else, he is on this ticket because they shoehorned in a sock puppet. The poor old man at one point had a name for himself but since there are a bunch of people around him that wanted to profit off the name he made for himself, he has instead turned into a senile old man on the public stage. That is the stamp he leaves in the history books because he is surrounded by shitbags that are taking advantage of an old man who cannot cognitively make decisions for himself anymore.
There was a laundry list of candidates pushed out for him last cycle and they refused to primary him this cycle, because they can take advantage of him, worst case scenario they get Trump to lower the bar further for 2028.
I would vote for any one of those people a thousand times over putting Biden or the country through what is happening now. AND SO WOULD ANYONE ELSE. If you think centrist dems will vote for Trump because the other option is a gay man, that's crazy. If you think the far left will vote for Trump over Kamala because she's a cop, you're crazy. One thing a LOT of people won't vote for is an old man that can't even fucking talk.
I will vote for Biden if that's all that's offered purely because I can handle stupidity due to an actual mental deficit. I can't handle the willful ignorance of facts and pure evil from Trump and his cronies. Most people (and I am not referring to the type of people cruising a politics sub) just won't fucking vote.
Its not centrist dems who are in charge of this situation. Its Joe "Independent" who kinda-sorta is flirting with Ron DeSantis's Don't Say Gay bill and has eaten 8 years of anti-Democratic women propaganda from the right. Kamala is a difficult to pronounce name and she ain't exactly white looking. My racist buddies don't like her face or how she talks.
Honestly, I think Kamala has a chance vs Trump directly. She's much more of a "fighter" type and I actually think her lawyer background would keep her more witty than both Trump and Biden. But you're severely mistaken about the nature of Kamala's problem as a Presidential top-of-the-line leader of the Democrats.
People in the USA are racist fucks, and the moderates who flip the vote are "mildly racist" (not enough to say they're against Kamala or Clinton on womanhood alone, but instead use weasel words like "Not strong enough" or "Bad politics for Russia", etc. etc.).
The main benefit we anti-Trumpers have going for us (note: I'm not a liberal), is that you Liberals have +4 more years off GenZ entering the voting pool and Conservatives have -4 years of Baby Boomers dying off.
GenZ / Youth Vote is famously finicky but if everyone just votes the same as 2020, this is all quite in Biden's favor actually. Do you think Biden's performance yesterday was truly so bad that "Joe Moderate" is flipping over to Trump now?
I don't think so. Add the GenZ (however tepid their turnout will be) and we got this.
That's the fucking point. You don't have a choice. They decide. You vote for who you choose. Hope you don't have a problem with that or you're a fascist.
"Choose" is used losely in this sentence too.
It's pretty bad...yeah.
I'd agree with you, except that we're in the dark timeline where the DNC has burned us hard by making dumb electoral decisions. We're basically given another chance at 2016 where we have a democratic shoehorn vs a narcissistic authoritarian. I'm actually getting to the point where I regret not voting for Hilary because of how much of a shit show those years were.
So, yes, I'd love to vote for someone else, preferably like Bernie, but it's far too late to recampaign. Especially since it's less than 5 months prior to actual elections. Given what was accomplished these past 4 years, I'd actually be okay with Biden if he would meaningfully do something to help Palestine.
I'm not sure what about last night gave you the impression HE is capable of doing anything.
The last three years did that. Idgaf about one bad debate.
Just remember, there are tons of people around him that hear him act and talk the way he did last night and keep this all going. He talks to foreign leaders and loses his train of thought. He participates in security briefings and decides how to handle crisis while he cannot hold a conversation. That isn't one bad debate, it is a result of him not having notes or interaction with his advisors. This was him demonstrating his actual mental capabilities. It was predictable by anyone who has paid attention. Also, name one thing he did over the past 4 years that wasn't immediately blocked that isn't just.... not be Trump.
Biggest climate change law ever, forgave student loans, pardoned homosexual acts on the military, stood in picket lines, got railroad workers sick days, appointed a trust buster to the FTC.
Plenty more. And he's not trump. Got my vote and Anyone who isn't a complete dumbass, their vote too. Don't forget about who will pick new SCOTUS justices too.
He forgave very few student loans. The first attempt was predictably blocked. The second attempt is Actually impossible to qualify for. I am a first responder. To qualify you have to have made on time payments through a qualified payment plan for 10 years. If you ever changed jobs that 10 year timer resets. And if you make on time payments for 10 years your loan would be paid off already anyway, we arent walking around with a doctorates. There are forums and forums of people trying to figure out how to qualify and no one does. It is all just posturing and pretending they tried. Everything else you said is a gimme and par for the course. Only thing is Trump would have been far more productive in the opposite direction. So there is that.
I think you need to capitalize and repeat HILLARY a few more times to point out how logical and politically savvy you are.
“I mean HILLARY could even make statements without being as ASHAMED as ANYONE. ANYONE! HILLARY could be literally ANYONE plus HATE! To be better than HILLARY people!“
This is the incoherence you bring to the table. Maybe spice it up with the DNC being James Bond level super villains and telling everyone what to think?
Lmao he only mentioned her twice, you're talking about her more than he is
Lmao, the fuck? You laugh why dipshit?
Why is she mentioned at all? Who cares if I say her name 3 times compared to 2.
What’s the fucking difference if YOU think she has no relevance at all? Got anything relevant to add or just lmao?