948
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 15 Feb 2024
948 points (98.3% liked)
World News
31437 readers
951 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
We could have had Al Gore instead of Bush if the Supreme Court didn't toss Bush the crown because... reasons
Because SCOTUS decided that it was perfectly fair and valid to have the final vote on who got to he president come down to one of the peoples' brother and there was absolutely nothing wrong about that
If only we had AI Gore in the early 00s.
We should have! Republicans illegally stole that from us as well
Also, many progressives stayed home or voted for the Green Party. Not that it is more the fault of progressives than SCOTUS, but blame aside, it’s a cautionary tale.
I wonder how the Nader voters feel.
That argument goes both ways. "Nader would have won if progressives hadn't handed the election to the Republicans by throwing their votes away on Gore." Same is true for 2016 with Bernie and Clinton.
It really doesn’t go both ways. The winning presidential candidate needs to get the most votes, and most US voters are not progressive. They’re moderate, or indifferent.
I don’t know how you could say that about HRC and Sanders. That’s not even a hypothetical: they literally had a head to head match where, to my huge disappointment, HRC won. Protesting HRC helped elect Trump, and obviously that hasn’t been good for progressive interests or democracy.
Your argument makes no sense.
You acknowledge progressives won't vote for moderates. But what makes you think moderates won't vote for progressives if they don't have a choice?
Do you really believe the people who voted for Clinton wouldn't have voted for Sanders in the general? If so, then shouldn't the blame be on them too? If not, then can you admit you're wrong?
I’ve read your comment a few times but I’m having a genuinely hard time parsing your point.
The person I’m responding to was saying that Nader could have won if progressives voted for him instead of Gore. I pointed out that presidential candidates need a broad coalition of voters to get enough votes, not just far left progressives.
You seem to be making a totally different argument. You claim that if Nader was the only choice, then Democratic leaning moderates would have voted for him.
I don’t mean to be rude, but what is the point of this thought experiment? Nader wasn’t the only choice. Moreover, US politics in 2000 was significantly less polarized: MANY Gore voters would have definitely voted for Bush, who campaigned under “compassionate conservatism” and was seen as a moderate, over the farthest left candidate, Nader.
If Sanders had won the nomination, I think he would have kicked ass against Trump, but Sanders sadly lost. I’m trying to understand your last line: are you asking if I would blame HRC supporters for refusing to vote for Sanders in the general and allowing a fascist corrupt dictator in? Uh, yes. Obviously I would blame them. That precisely aligns with everything I’ve said.
Nah, they reiterated my point pretty well. You can't claim that "candidate 'A' is the correct choice because of their broad appeal" when they wind up losing the election. Obviously, they didn't have the most appeal. The attitude that "I picked the right person and it's everyone else's fault they didn't win" is absurd. Anybody can make that argument about any candidate and be just as equally 'correct.'
That's not what you said in the comment I responded to. You claimed that Nader could have won if progressives had voted for him instead of Gore, but there aren't enough progressive votes.
Voting in a FPTP two party system is a coordination game, one where it is mathematically impossible for third parties to win. Pretending otherwise is sadly delusional.
It's like you're trying to decide which building to buy as a group to start co-op housing. Almost everyone prefers building A, but you prefer building B. If you all don't compromise, then there is not enough money and you're all homeless. In a democracy, it is obviously more fair if you compromise than everyone else compromises. You either don't believe in democracy, or you're happy with things never getting better.
I said "that argument goes both ways" meaning "my candidate would have won if X, Y, and Z happened" is always valid regardless of the candidate.
You can't rewrite the past, so you're inventing a hypothetical/fictional scenario based on your opinion. In a fictional scenario, anything is possible. Your argument was "if more people voted for Gore, he would have won" and I countered with "if more people voted for Nader, he would have won." You can't claim Gore was the best choice because the best choice is the one who wins the election.
What a joke. The "you" here is the entire American public while "everyone else" is a small handful of wealthy, powerful individuals.
Can you explain how continuing to elect corporate Democrats makes things better? Are we better now than 10 years ago? Are we better than we were 20 years ago? There's obviously a quality of life trend here, and it hasn't trended up in quite a long time. You'll predictably place the blame solely on Republicans even though Democrats make up 50% of that equation. Republicans sure don't seem to have the same issue passing their legislation. Why do you think that is?
You got 3 upvotes within minutes after you posted on a 2 day old post? And I got 3 downvotes at the same time? You're pathetic.
Lmao what does that have to do with me? Upvotes don't mean anything on lemmy and it's a bit pathetic to whine about them. And if you think I'm using multiple accounts to downvote you, consider that many people sort by "new comments" here since lemmy doesn't get the traffic that reddit does.
You ought to change your username though because you're far from open minded.
lol Funny how no one else seems to be voting anywhere else in this thread anymore, except minutes after your comment. It’s embarrassing that you’re doubling down. Sociopathic behavior.
It is pointless arguing with someone so devoted to winning an internet debate. Can’t reason with that.
Sociopathic behavior is sitting and monitoring an entire post's vote tallies to see how your comment is doing. I literally don't give two shits about the vote counts. The fact that you've abandoned your argument to whine about karma is pretty telling.
Ah yes, the real problem is the person calling you out on your BS. What an honest and productive conversation I’m missing out on!
I'm missing the part where people are responsible for voting for a bad candidate in the DNC primaries.
I’m not sure what you mean.
You're shaming progressives for staying home, but you aren't casting judgement at the people who voted for a loser candidate in the primaries.
Yes, progressives who stay at home for the general election do not understand US democracy. The US has a 2 party FPTP system, not proportional representation. Unlike multi-party parliamentary systems, we usually have to vote for a compromise, not our top choice. If you don't vote, you don't "send a message", you simply forfeit your political power. If Republicans win, and keep winning, then that's a signal for Democrats to shift right, to try to win back the median voter.
I hate the argumentative strategy of criticizing candidates for being political "losers". Rightwingers do that all the time. By that logic, progressives also had "loser candidates", since many fail in the primaries. I personally don't think Sanders, for example, was a "loser", even if he lost in the primary.
Or we do? "We lose regardless. Let's stay home."
I'm getting really sick of this inversion of responsibility. Moderates dominate the primaries and elect someone who doesn't resonate with the leftists and progressives but aren't responsible for how that candidate does in the general? They control the outcome in the primaries but aren't responsible for what happens in the general? That makes no sense.
As the majority moderates must take the lions share of the responsibility. Where is that happening?
right
We might as well skip all the pomp and circumstance and just assign the votes automatically based on party registration. That's how it's done currently with the added facade of having a "choice."
The Overton window continues to shift to the right regardless of who wins elections because there are power people benefiting from it and it's incredibly easy to spread propaganda to the masses with tv/radio/internet.
What are you even talking about with your first paragraph? The result of elections aren’t predictable. In fact, they’re less predictable than ever. And what’s with “choice” in quotes: are you an election truther? That’s more of a right wing conspiracy.
That’s a pathetic cowardly take on the Overton window. What even is your point? “Let’s give up because nothing matters”? Fuck that. I’m fighting.
It’s also empirically untrue: I don’t know how you haven’t noticed that the US is going through the biggest labor movement in a generation. In the last 3 years, Dems have passed one of the most progressive agendas in a generation.
I'm talking about the fact that we keep getting Clinton's and Bidens as our nominees because that's what the party leadership wants. They choose who gets the backing, who gets the funding, who gets the airtime, and who gets to debate. The primaries are little more than a sham to give us the illusion of choice because this private organization already picked their winner. You claim elections are less predictable than ever, yet there's a 100% chance it's going to be one of two people, either the D or R, who's going to win, both backed by the same wealthy donors to do their bidding. That's the illusion of choice.
Your fighting, eh? Well, how's the fight coming? At what point do you consider the fight won? Do you envision some point in the future where Republicans no longer hold office and the country is some utopia of pure Democratic leadership? Good luck accomplishing that when, as I stated above, there are only two choice on the ballot and one of them is Republican. That kind of solidifies their place in government as they're the only alternative for people to vote for. That ensures we'll keep having people like Trump waiting in the wings and taking office every time a Clinton-like candidate runs against them. This also ensures that Democratic candidates don't actually have to do jack shit for the country as they're going to get your vote anyway. This is why I stated that elections might as well be automatic based on party registration and why it's an illusion of choice. You're not fighting by voting D or R. You're just perpetuating the status quo.
If you think Biden's candidacy was inevitable, you were asleep during the primaries. Here's the simple obvious explanation: Biden never lost his nationwide polling lead, not once, during the whole race. Are the polls part of the conspiracy too?
The craziest thing about your conspiracy theory is that it's flatly contradicted by Trump, who was clearly NOT the establishment choice in 2016. Establishment politicians and media pushed Jeb Bush, Scott Walker, John Kasich, anyone but Trump. They all criticized or downplayed Trump non-stop (for good reason)... and yet he won.
I'm living through one of the biggest shifts left in politics in a generation. The left/center-left coalition has been surprisingly dominant. Mid-terms, special elections, etc. We keep winning. It's not perfect, but it's the right direction. But we need to keep winning elections for a long time for durable change.
Never. Politics is a continual process, not a destination. If we get complacent, progress dies.
No. That's not even the point. Republicans used to be the progressive party (that's why they use the color red). Parties don't matter as much as ideas. The point isn't for "my team" to win. If Republicans continue losing for a decade, then they will be forced to shift left, just as Dems shifted right after Reagan with Clinton.
I feel like you're asleep now. Even as people sweat the possibility of Biden losing they are claiming Biden had the best chance of anyone running in the primaries to defeat Trump in the general. Let's dissect that claim for a moment.
That would mean:
Furthermore, this message isn't being delivered as a political reality backed up by numbers and proof, but rather a promise by moderates. If leftists or progressives did manage to get a candidate through the primaries moderates would abandon all that "vote blue not matter who" stuff immediately and outright fight them in the general election to prove a point.
Apathy, rebellion and anger are rational responses to this experience.
You're changing the subject. My claim was about 2020, not 2024. This year, yes, Biden's candidacy is inevitable. It is almost unheard of to challenge an incumbent president, and Democrats want to avoid an intra-party fight. When Ted Kennedy challenged Jimmy Carter in 1980, it was a disaster that damaged the party for a long time.
I agree with you that Biden is a weak candidate and there are better candidates. But you made the extreme claim that elections don't matter, that we have no choice, that shadowy elites choose all the candidates, and other silly conspiracy theories.
Conspiracy theories don't become justified just because you're apathetic and angry. I'm not sure how you think you're being rebellious. When you don't vote, that's not rebellion. No one cares. You don't matter, politically.
I was talking about the 2020 primaries as well. Even in retrospect plenty of people still say out of all candidates in the 2020 primaries Biden was the best chance of beating Trump. Then they turn around and try to figure out why so many leftists and progressives are becoming apathetic, angry or voting 3rd party.
im confused on this, didnt they do like three recounts??
Recounts only matter if you're counting all the ballots instead of just the ballots you want you count because your brother happens to be one of the candidates. They invalidated a bunch of ballots that were hole-punched because the paper that was punched out didn't completely tear away (see: "hanging chad").
i dont understand? did bush have a governor brother in florida?
Yes Jeb Bush is his brother and was governor at the time.