this post was submitted on 30 Nov 2023
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By "IT" do you mean tech? Because as a software engineer, I've seen turnover rates of 1-2 years for some of my favorite people I've worked with. If they actually had bargaining power, we know via studies done on unions and turnover rates that these engineers likely wouldn't dip as quickly and take institutional knowledge and their smart brains with them. Tech is so allergic to unions that it is literally inflicting damage onto itself - managers will tell you how expensive it is to hire new people because it takes months for them to catch up to your codebase, but the higher-up leadership is completely unwilling to listen to the data on how to actually retain people. They don't care if unions increase productivity or that the elasticity between productivity and salary is >1.0 as the unionisation rate grows (per studies done in Norway), because they don't want to lose their complete control over companies to collective bargaining.
You're making good arguments why a company employing IT staff (software devs, engineers, architects), but where is the argument to the benefit of the worker themselves in this case?
This is a benefit to the worker. They're leaving because they got a better paying gig or less work/fewer hours for the same amount of money.
Yes, because there's no union there to bargain for better pay, bonuses, more time off work, and so forth. Tech is a new industry where workers have more bargaining power on an individual level because expertise is so sought after. Now imagine combining that with unions and we'd probably all be doing 4 day work weeks already, like unions are currently bargaining for in various countries. We'd likely also have more time for tech debt, as unions increase certain types of innovation.
Like, if unions can do this for McDonalds workers after a sympathy strike in Nordic countries:
Why would we assume tech workers in a very profitable industry wouldn't be able to get away with even more?
We're in agreement. The individual has all the power to bargain for themselves better pay, bonuses, more time off work, and so forth. A union in this case not only adds no value, but subtracts value because it dilutes the benefits across more people. There is certainly a good chunk of dead weight in IT, those that let their skills stagnate or don't put in effort to the team. I've worked with a number of them. At one point I've personally been one of them before I understood it. Much of the individual bargaining means gaining resources that, if spread evenly, would go to some of that dead weight. Keep in mind, even dead weight in IT pays pretty decently. Those folks aren't going hungry. In some ways its one of the few partial meritocracies left, though merit here is not only technical skills but soft people skills combined.
Again, this is mostly an organizational benefit, not an employee one. If the employer doesn't heed the warnings of the employees that tech debt is increasing and becoming a business risk to the organization, the employee doesn't have to fall on their sword to try to save the employer in spite of themselves. The employee jumps to another employer which pays more (or requires less hours). The new employer may have equally or possibly even more tech debt. So the situation for the work is unchanged but the employee's salary and benefits are increased. This is the mercenary culture of IT I was referring to.
Because those at the far end of skilled are getting less to level out those that are less skilled or less committed. Ultimately it IS a zero sum game.
Keep in mind, many IT skills can be very "flash in the pan" or trendy. One year you're in extremely high demand able to demand top dollar, and others your skills are out of market favor and saturated with IT workers with the same skills that aren't in demand and what you can earn with what you know is drastically reduced. It requires the constant prognostication of what going to be in demand next, and the effort to learn those skills to be skilled up if those skills go up in value for a time. Its a huge gamble. You bet right sometimes can demand a kings ransom for more hours than you can bill. Other years you bet on the wrong skills and have learned something nearly worthless or so short lived it wasn't worth the effort.
Savvy IT people (and other industries that work the same) understand this cyclical nature and save during the fat years to be able to live okay during the lean years.
Couldn't agree more as a software engineer who recently switched jobs. Unions are fucking amazing in most industries, but I can't help but feel it would hurt workers more than it would benefit us in tech. You could guarantee 5% a year raises indefinitely and it still wouldn't be enough. Even at companies where you consistently get 10% raises per year + bonus you can just jump and hit 20%+.
Software engineers can also have insane risk tolerance career-wise because we make enough money to build massive emergency funds and investment portfolios to fall back on if things go south. This is all without considering that sometimes you just don't vibe with a team, or you stop learning and want to go elsewhere to expand your skill set. Under a union, which usually awards people based on tenure, you'd be punished for making these sorts of moves despite them making you a better software engineer.
I'm a unionized tech worker going on 15 years and many of my close friends from college have similar career paths minus the unionized position. There are a couple who are now in senior leadership management level and make more, but those wouldn't be unionized positions anyway. Everything considered I make more and have better benefits and conditions as a result of collective bargaining, and all the downsides people bring up I've likely had personal experience with, but when I talk about these things with my private-employer friends it usually leads to, "if you think that's bad..." Like I've seen ineffective people be fired and all that. I've moved around a bit, had promotions to different salary bands, all within the union.
Overall I think given the amount of capital thrown in to tech industry vs how people work and are compensated, it's one of the fertile grounds for organization and worker actions. Especially when it comes to outsourcing work to countries where workers can be more easily exploited because the labor laws are so much worse.
All fair points, and I'm definitely leaning more towards your viewpoint having read them.
I guess I've just never felt the need for them given I've been treated and paid well so far, and I really like the ability to just walk next door at a moment's notice if I so desire. Not that I've ever not given two weeks, but the option to do so, and not feeling like I'm gonna be compensated less due to short tenure is nice. Not that unions have to operate that way, but historically that's the case.
I'm glad it has worked well for you! I'll definitely be more open to joining one in the future, and strongly consider it if the opportunity arises. Thanks for your perspective.
I think with professional-managerial type jobs like ours, we have knowledge that the employers consider valuable and if you're effective in the role you're pretty much able to find a good job, like you have that bargaining chip. That doesn't mean that will always be the case but for now it's pretty good, especially in certain countries. For "replaceable" jobs or ones that involve physical labor and safety the unions are a lot more necessary, especially industrial unions.
nah they're just part of the last layoff
This. I'm a computer programmer, never been in a union, but after twenty years of startups I cannot believe how good it is to be at a small, stable, employee owned company.
Only looking back do I realize that the people doing the actual work were never in control, and just how damaging that is.
To pour you life and soul into building something (time, and time again), and then have it taken away from you again, and again.
Never going back.
Unions can't really prevent layoffs unfortunately, but can guarantee severances. However most tech employees already receive generous severance packages.
Software engineers also still sit at half the unemployment rate of the rest of the US despite the layoffs throughout this past year.
I'm very pro-union, I just don't think they belong in tech given how much power engineers already have, and that power being entirely dictated by the ability to jump ship yesterday.