One 12 year old child has died. Two others wounded. Horrible.
this post was submitted on 02 Apr 2024
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This is gonna be interesting.
If I had to guess, I'd put my money on a high power air pistol.
Very unlikely there's an "actual" handgun on a 12-year old.
Not impossible, but unlikely. And he'd never manage to get to the school to shoot anyone if he was packing a rifle.
edit apparently it was a "real" gun yeah
A wittness heard shots in the neighbourhood, so quite possible to be a real gun...
Thanks for the info.
I checked Yle and the police called it an "ampuma-ase", but the law defining those does cover high power air weapons.
And not to discredit the witness in any way, but if they were close to the shooting and are say, a late middle-aged woman with no experience of guns irl (no sexism just statistically most Finnish men go through the army so they'd know), they might have confuses a high power gas pistol with an actual one, since the gas weapons do also make a mean pop.
However it could just as well be an actual gunpowder propeller firearm, it's not impossible, and am very interested in how it was acquired if it is an actual gun.
My guess would be something like the kid is from a bad family in which the father is a dipshit criminal who has like a starter pistol bored to .22. Even with criminals, gun are rather rare. (I happen to know the local black markets to some extent.)
Perhaps the capital area is getting more out of control than I know. I live a few cities away.
However it could just as well be an actual gunpowder propeller firearm, it’s not impossible, and am very interested in how it was acquired if it is an actual gun.
Based on local news it was an actual handgun (as in gunpowder operated) and legally owned by "close relative" of the shooter. One of tabloid newspapers here made a guess based on a blurry photo that it might have been a .22 revolver, but no official nor confirmed information is released.
High powered gas handguns are legally in the same category than gunpowder operated ones and they're relatively uncommon compared to .22lr or 9mm pistols, which specially older people could have purchased with relatively easily back in the day. Today the laws are stricter, but it's still not too difficult to legally get one. They should of course be locked up so that unauthorized people can't have access to them, but if that relative took the shooter to the range he/she might know where the keys are kept, for example.
Whatever the case might be on how the gun was obtained, I'd say that it's more important to focus on why this individual decided to shoot classmates. There no point on speculation on what the reasoning was at this point, but if the shooter decided to hurt their classmates a common kitchen knife would've been enough too. Once the official investigation is complete we'll have more information on what actually happened and speculating about "dipshit criminals" doesn't do anything helpful nor useful at this point.
In any case this is a terrible tragedy for the whole country and there needs to be serious discussion about what the society should do and what we should change to keep our kids, shooter included, safe and in such a mental state (in a lack of better words) that they don't end up hurting people around them.
Today the laws are stricter, but it’s still not too difficult to legally get one.
Uh, in my opinion (which I base on facts, but what actually is "difficult" is subjective in conversation)... it really is though. It's not too hard to get a license for one, but you'd never have it at your residence, it'd be kept at the range, and even with the keys, the kid would not be able to get the gun from the range. The only exception is when you get a license for a pistol to have it as an execution weapon for hunting, and that is quite difficult to get. You have to have hunted for a while (two years at least), you have to be in a hunting club, you have to a need for a weapon like that. You can't have a criminal record, and you'll need a doctor's statement you're fine physically and mentally.
And then it's up to the police, who get to decide it themselves, and have kept those very much stricter after the school shootings we had in the beginning of the millenium.
My guess is still that it's an illegal weapon. That would make the most sense to me, despite those being quite rare. An illegal weapon, a young father who deals drugs, something like that.
I mean, there's no point speculating too much, yeah, but I'm pretty sure it's the regular "I got bullied and now I'll show you".
You can definitely hurt people with a knife, but it's nothing like having a powerful ranged weapon. Especially around 12, some kids are farther in puberty than others, and you can block a knife with your body to shield your head/inner organs.
It's no wonder this has happened. I could go on hours about why and how we can help avoid situations like this in Finland, but people usually just don't care. Which is why this sort of thing happens in the first place. I could tell you horror stories of what our mental health care has done. Or rather hasn't done.
Anyway, it's just horrible. Horrible horrible. But I can't pretend most of my frustration doesn't from knowing how bad our national mental health is, and knowing the massive contributing reasons.
It’s not too hard to get a license for one, but you’d never have it at your residence, it’d be kept at the range, and even with the keys, the kid would not be able to get the gun from the range.
As far as I know there's no range which would provide gun storages for it's members for various reasons, most obvious being that they don't want the liability in case something, like a break in, happens. At least outside big cities this is something that doesn't and can't exist. Additionally, by law, the guns must be stored at the primary residence, unless you make special arrangements otherwise, like having a safe at the range with electronic alarm systems and all the jazz or stored with a gun professional in case you intend to sell it/have it repaired/things like that.
With hunting weapons (rifles, shotguns) it's even more obvious that they can't be stored elsewhere, but that's a whole another matter.
For the license you need to have a valid need for a gun of any type. So you need to prove that you're active hobbyist (no need to join any kind of club or association, regardless of the user case) and prove that you're mentally and physically in good enough order to own a gun. And that is a fact as I went trough the whole circus few years ago and got myself a permit.
Huh. Well guess I've misinformed as someone from a hunting town with no sports shooters?
I somehow, for some reason, did weirdly assume sports shooters have safes within the sports associations spaces, which have been accepted by the police as a place to safely keep firearms. Because ranges do have weapons you can go shoot with. So those spaces do exist. And the law stipulates you need to avoid unnecessary travel with a weapon. So... logically if you have a weapon you use only for sports shooting, at a range which has a gun storage approved by the local police, it would be unnecessary travel with a weapon to bring it home and then take it back there.
Hunting weapons are obviously stored at homes, that's why I specified it as an exemption. I used to sleep in a room with two shotguns, two .22's and a .308, pretty much above my bed. This was before the current laws, back in late 90's early 00's. After the few school shootings we had, we got a safe. Before that we just took the bolts off to keep them safe. (Well the grip for the shotties, but it serves the same thing.)
There might be need to join an association in certain cases. For instance, if you want to shoot moose. I'm not sure if exceptions exist, but I'm pretty sure felling permits aren't given to individual people, but hunting parties. And so if you want a license for a .308, you'll need to show use for it. I guess you can make a case that you're shooting deer alone and that might suffice.
You need to show at least two years of shooting with a firearm. Where would you get that kind of experience if you're not practically part of an association? You won't be able to convince the police you've practiced by yourself with a gun. There needs to be actual evidence. The words "valid need" are doing a lot of heavy lifting in your last paragraph, especially with the absolutism of "no need to join any kind of club or association.
So while the law doesn't stipulate a need to belong to a club or association, in practice you have to be, because you can not demonstrate a valid need otherwise.
Because ranges do have weapons you can go shoot with
Some do, but that's the main attraction on their business where they loan weapons and let you shoot with them. Vast majority of ranges however are just a place in the middle of nowhere, some even without any kind of electricity and often they go days or even weeks without anyone visiting. Most of those places don't have any kind of winter maintenance either. So if you were forced to leave your firearm there there would be very little of stopping someone malicious visiting with heavy tools and breaking into every safe on site.
For instance, if you want to shoot moose. I’m not sure if exceptions exist, but I’m pretty sure felling permits aren’t given to individual people, but hunting parties.
If you own enough land you can apply for an permit for yourself. You're correct that vast majority of them are granted to parties and associations, but strictly speaking you don't have to join one.
You need to show at least two years of shooting with a firearm. Where would you get that kind of experience if you’re not practically part of an association?
By yourself. You can train with a air pistol and all you need is to prove that you're an active hobbyist. In practice you need to have a certified weapons trainer to prove your word and some of them might not sign the certificate if you're not a part of their association, but it's not a strict rule nor something required by law.
We have a freedom of association and that includes freedom of not associating with anyone. I'm not a member of any kind of sport shooting clubs as there's none around here and that's not a problem. Sure, you need to find out a certified trainer who trusts your shooting diary, but that's it. And 'valid reason' is as good an explanation as any. Your hobby is target shooting? You can apply for a license with that. Your hobby is hunting? Same thing. You're a farmer and need a weapon in case you need to kill one of your cows/wild hogs in case it injured itself and/or is a threat to safety? Sure. And if you happened to be a farmer in the 70's you could get a permit for semi-automatic .22lr pistol for pest control, but I don't think that's a valid reason anymore.
So, with that in mind, I'd be very surprised if the gun used in today's tragedy were illegal but as the media has already covered, it was a legally licensed firearm, so there's no point of speculating with that any further.
Vast majority of ranges however are just a place in the middle of nowhere, some even without any kind of electricity and often they go days or even weeks without anyone visiting.
Oh yeah there are two type of ranges in the Finnish law, and I'm talking about the non-passive one. I didn't consider an ampumarata to be a "range" if you can get the difference in connotation, despite the word being the exact same thing. Most ranges are sort of the "type II", which is what I grew up shooting on as well. The type that you'd find in a hunting community.
I visited a few different ones though, military and civilian, and the civilian ones which usually host sport shooting also have storage licensed by the police. If you do shooting and there's a storage at the place you do the shooting, then taking the gun home would be literally unnecessary travel with it, which is — according to law — to be avoided.
Similarly as hunters would only carry weapons in their car when they're coming from or going to hunt, but having a rifle in your boot when you're just out shopping would be illegal, unless you were taking it to be fixed or something other. Again, the subjective nature of the wording of the law allows for a lot of things, but only if you have the valid need.
but strictly speaking you don’t have to join one.
By law, no, but in practice, you do. That's sort of the thing that's been my point.
By yourself. You can train with a air pistol and all you need is to prove that you’re an active hobbyist.
You can't just tell the cops "no but seriously, I've been practicing with an air gun in my backyard, trust me bro".
https://www.ampumaurheiluliitto.fi/liitto/jasenpalvelut/aselupaneuvonta/
Miten harrastuskerrat lasketaan esimerkiksi kahden vuoden ajalta?
Ampuma-aselain 6 § 2 momentin 4-7 kohtien mukaista käsiasetta (esim. pistoolia) hakiessa on tullut harrastaa vähintään 2 vuotta aktiivisesti ampumaurheiluharrastusta eli yhteensä vähintään 10 harrastuskertaa tasaisin väliajoin, jotta harrastus olisi jatkuvaa. Harrastuksen on siis oltava jatkuvaa. Tässä ei riitä lyhyellä ajalla 5 harrastuskertaa, jonka jälkeen pitää vuoden tauon ja käy tämän jälkeen taas 5 kertaa harrastelemassa
Käykö ilmapistoolilla ampuminen 2 vuoden harrastuksen osoittamiseen? Mitä jos ei ole hallussapitolupaa ennestään käsiaseeseen?
Hakiessa uutta lupaa käsiasetta varten on osoitettava harrastaneensa 2 vuotta kyseisellä asetyypillä eli käsiaseella. Myös ilmapistoolilla harjoittelu käy käsiasetyypin harjoittelusta. Mikäli ei ole hallussapitolupaa käsiaseelle, silloin ainoa mahdollisuus on käydä valvotusti ampumaradalla ja saada kuittaus ratavalvojalta päiväkirjaan. Näin voi osoittaa ampuma-asekouluttajan todistusta varten käyneensä ampumassa tarpeeksi kauan kyseisellä asetyypillä.
And the same in English:
How are the hobby sessions calculated over a two-year period, for example?
When applying for a handgun (e.g. a pistol) according to Section 6, subsection 2, points 4-7 of the Firearms Act, you must have been actively involved in shooting sports for at least 2 years, i.e. a total of at least 10 times at regular intervals, so that the hobby would be continuous. So the hobby must be continuous. Here, 5 hobby sessions in a short period of time are not enough, after which you take a year off and after that go 5 times again to practice
Can shooting with an air pistol be used to prove 2 years of hobby? What if you don't already have a possession permit for a handgun?
When applying for a new permit for a handgun, you must prove that you have practiced for 2 years with the type of weapon in question, i.e. a handgun. Training with an air pistol is also the same as training for the handgun type. If there is no possession permit for a handgun, then the only possibility is to visit the shooting range under supervision and get a receipt from the range supervisor in the diary. This way you can show that you have been shooting for a long enough time with the type of weapon in question for the firearms instructor's certificate.
Yeah, like I said, technically, in law, there is no DIRECT requirement to be in an association, but IN PRACTICE, there is. You say:
some of them might not sign the certificate if you’re not a part of their association
But really, can you find me a single one who'd certify you without having been a part of the association? In the current climate? Seriously? I do not for one second believe you'll find a person like that and you'd still need to verify all the times you've practiced, not just a single certification of "he's good". That's not something you can do for yourself in your backyard.
You’re a farmer and need a weapon in case you need to kill one of your cows/wild hogs in case it injured itself and/or is a threat to safety?
You get a vet, not a gun. Good luck getting a pistol for execution as a farmer without being a hunter. Regards, someone who was born in a village of hunters and farmers.
I'm getting more and more doubtful that you actually have a license for any sort of firearm.
edit here's one more bit from that earlier link:
>Satunnaista maaliin ampumista ei kuitenkaan voitaisi pitää momentissa tarkoitettuna ampumaharrastuksena, vaan ampumaharrastuksen tulisi käsittää jonkin sellaisen lajin aktiivista harrastamista, jossa järjestetään kilpailuja
>Random shooting at a target, however, could not be considered a shooting hobby as referred to in the paragraph, but a shooting hobby should include the active pursuit of a sport in which competitions are organized
That's what I feel like you're talking about by "training yourself" essentially, and that sort of thing is rather explicitly mentioned
You can’t just tell the cops “no but seriously, I’ve been practicing with an air gun in my backyard, trust me bro”.
Obviously, but you conveniently didn't quote the part where I said you need a signed proof from a licensed weapons trainer.
But really, can you find me a single one who’d certify you without having been a part of the association? In the current climate? Seriously?
I can. Multiple even, a phone call away. But in here you just of course have to 'trust me bro', I'm not going to prove that just for the sake of random conversation over the internet.
Good luck getting a pistol for execution as a farmer without being a hunter. Regards, someone who was born in a village of hunters and farmers.
I know several. Coming from someone currently living in a village of hunters and farmers. Obviously many of them are hobbyist hunters as well, but you don't get a permit for 9mm pistol for duck hunting.
I’m getting more and more doubtful that you actually have a license for any sort of firearm.
I don't care. The law, and my very real world experience, says that you don't need to be a part of any association or club to get a permit regardless of the weapon type, as long as you otherwise qualify to have one.
Obviously, but you conveniently didn’t quote the part where I said you need a signed proof from a licensed weapons trainer.
So every time you practice, there's a licensed weapons trainer at the scene? Sounds a bit like being a part of a sports shooting association to me.
I’m not going to prove that just for the sake of random conversation over the internet.
As if you could. What would you do, phone up a person right now, after today's events, and ask them "hey, say if someone told you they've been training with an air pistol in their back yard, would you sign a certification saying you think it's okay for them to get a license for a handgun"? I'm sure that even the lazier and less responsible ones wouldn't agree after today.
The point rather being that you need verification. Your argument is "yeah you just write up a diary of when you practiced and how and it'll get you a signature from a licensed weapons trainer and that'll get you a gun" when in reality, it does not work that way.
Obviously many of them are hobbyist hunters as well, but you don’t get a permit for 9mm pistol for duck hunting.
No, but without having a hunting license, you won't get one. This is the same as with finished military service. It affects the decision of the police, which is quite subjective. I know the Finnish cops are highly overestimated, so I understand that some of them don't exactly follow the law to the letter, but in most places, they're pretty strict about guns. If you have a hunting license and you're part of a hunting association and you need a gun for executing livestock, it's a no-brainer. If you're a farmer without a hunting license, as I specified, good luck getting one. And if you're a hunter, you're in a hunting association. That's almost 100% true. I dare you to challenge that assertion and show me farmers who are hunters who aren't part of hunting associations.
So you're saying you shot with an air pistol by yourself, for more than two years, then logged the times, then went to a firearms instructor, told them, "yeah I have some scribbles in a notebook, can I gets gun" and then they said "sure, I don't see a reason to doubt you at all" and then got a license from the police based on that and at no point were you associated with any sort of hunting association or a sports shooting club?
Yeah, I call BS on that.
Weird how you completely missed the
Random shooting at a target, however, could not be considered a shooting hobby as referred to in the paragraph, but a shooting hobby should include the active pursuit of a sport in which competitions are organized
part and the other parts which specify that the exact sort of thing you're talking about is explicitly guarded for.
Had we had this talk back in -99, sure. But -24? Nope.
Did you read the article? It was a relatives gun.
Yeah, it says that now.
It didn't say it at 11 in the morning when they first published. It's been updated several times during the day.
a relative's* gun
This is the best summary I could come up with:
HELSINKI (AP) — A 12-year-old student opened fire at a secondary school in southern Finland and wounded three other students on Tuesday, police said.
The suspect was later arrested, police said.
Heavily armed police cordoned off the lower secondary school, with some 800 students, in the city of Vantaa, just outside the capital, Helsinki, after receiving a call about a shooting incident at 09:08 a.m.
Police said both the suspect and the wounded were 12 years old.
Police said the suspect was arrested in the Helsinki area later Tuesday.
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