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As someone who used to visit incel communities (though I never supported the misogynist views), I think a lot of the appeal comes from the fact that they seem to be the only support groups for lonely men. Why aren’t there any non-toxic ones?
Few exist, but they do exist.
The issue is that many times in the past when men have tried to creat men only groups, they get called sexist and forced to open the group.
Men aren’t allowed to discuss their issues (men’s rights discussion is seen as hate), they aren’t allowed to discuss that they aren’t allowed to discuss men’s issues ( this is seen as hate ). Because men are seen as privileged.
I fully expect hate for this comment and I won’t engage.
The biggest reason support groups for men aren't well supported, is due to men enforcing the ideas of stoic machismo onto men. This leads to numerous things, one is a lack of support for men who are struggling, failing, lonely, whatever. Men aren't allowed to discuss their feelings because men have created a society that looks at them as losers for doing so. This is, very slowly, changing though.
The problem with a lot of men's right advocacy is that is really does end up being misogynist. Most men's right spaces I have encountered want to blame women for being lonely, for failing to make a family, etc. Meanwhile it is men that have had the primary hand in creating society, and it has been that way for thousands of years. We can't really affect change if we don't recognize that this is a bed that we made. If we are not happy lying in it, then we need to change, not women. I am also saying not saying women are just perfectly fine. Clearly everyone can have serious negative issues due to life. However, as it stands, the problems we believe are brought on by society, are the constructs of men.
The problem is the men that are struggling generally aren't the same men that made the bed.
Obviously, however that doesn't make it not a problem with men. We still need a collective introspection, and course correction.
How do you propose we bring this change about about? The one's who need to do it have no incentive. The rest of us can sit and think about things and blame ourselves for being men all we want but it won't change anything. I can encourage and support my peers all day long but it won't help them be more successful in life or get women to like them romantically because I have no social capital either.
You have to blame the men in charge, but also yourself, your upbringing, and realize you need to work on personal betterment just as much as trying to help other men. Real help, not just creating safe spaces to bitch about chads, and hate on women. Simply creating a place to support men, with actual counseling in mind, that diverts from just blaming women, will actually make things better, demographically. This social capital idea you have isn't the all encompassing thing you think it is. I have seen very meh looking men, who were fucking homeless, and jobless, in relationships with women. Having support groups, that are just not echo chambers of hate, and instead are implementing counseling methods, that certified people use, that you have researched yourself (do not call yourself a councilor, or claim any professional expertise, diagnosis, etc. just offer as help, man to man, with the increased knowledge) will, broadly, increase other men's sense of self. This will increase their personal confidence. This will lead to personal betterment. Then you push to branch out.
The idea that men need serious fucking help is already out there. Has been for a good while. It is slowly manifesting into society being more accepting of seeking mental health care, men processing their emotions, etc. Like I said, it is slow, but it is happening. If you are so inclined, do real research into the problems men face in society, like academic research, there is a lot out there to read through, and write a book. Maybe start a podcast, or YT channel. Sure you might not get anywere, but you got stuff out there, in the collective space, for others to see. Which is orders of magnitude more than any MRA, redpill, or incel community has done. Those communities just make the situation worse. They blame women, and even when they discuss men in power enforcing this, they just go "well this is a monumental task to change. Instead I will just stew, in this toxic echo chamber." While they are just making people advocating for reform for the betterment of men look bad. Look for people who want to publicly advocate reform. From the soap box, and maybe, eventually, to the larger public domain.
I do work on personal betterment quite a lot and encourage my peers to do so. As for the rest of it, how can I start a support group or YouTube channel if no one gives a shit about me or what I have to say? No one with the power to actually make changes will listen to me. The rest already know change needs to happen but can't do anything either so it would just turn into another echo chamber. Yes, a more positive one but still an echo chamber.
Have you ever petitioned your local legislators, or even contacted them? That is a starting point. You also search out what political initiatives are local to you, what political organizations are, and you look for ones already working for things that would benefit men. Things like groups pushing for better coverage of mental health care, groups that work to get popular media to discuss mental health, and work for better media representation of mental health care. There are plenty of these, and if none seem to be working for men's interests, since you joined, you now have a opening to present data to get them to do so, etc. Everyone who wasn't already a public figure, when the went on youtube, was in the same position. You could look for youtubers who are already doing just this, like for real, and not just grifting manosphere stuff, and push their channel to places.
Fuck, find channels that discuss mens' issues, and mental health, in a real way, and go push them in manosphere places.
There is a lot you can. You have to take the initiative, you have to figure out what is out there, you have to figure out how to interact with them, etc. It's not easy.
(emphasis added)
The implication here, that societal norms are created and maintained by only men, and therefore any aspects of it that affect men negatively deserve to be blamed on them, is one of the most pervasive anti-male sentiments that people try to fly under the radar with. Women have at least as much (arguably more) influence on societal norms and conventions, as men do.
This entire comment is teeming with this undertone; that is, until the end, when they come out and just say 'all the bad stuff is men's fault' at the end, lol.
I didn't say only by men, there is more comments for context to that statement you are leaving out, I said men have had most of the control through out history, so they have, by far, the greatest influence
And women spaces are allowed to blame men but they dont get closed
Yes, there are instances where men's support groups have shut down, due to misogyny, and there are women's support groups that did not, despite being misandrists. Guess who is the primary factor in the creation of this society in which this happens?
You missed it lol
Then correct my aim.
It's leftist groups that shut them down. Not defending the right, but that is what it is.
Can you give me specific instances so that I may scrutinize the situations?
Mens shelters for one. They got shut down for being anti feminist in my country at least. Shut down is kind of the wrong term. Maybe pushed out or gate kept? Please don't think this me trying to get out of the conversation I just don't have the words to describe my views. And I am exhausted from arguing with Republicans kn Facebook
I just wanted specified examples so that I could look them up.
In the city I used to live in, in the early 2000s, there was a big thing when a video of a men's support group, for mental health, came out where the organizer was on a very misogynistic rant. This place also had limited shelter for men who were homeless due to things like divorce. Soon after it got shut down. Not long after that, a video of a women's support group, for rape victims, came out, and it had members there going on similar rants towards men. So there was a heap of shit about it, and that group lost the lease to the space they used, and no one else would let them in. It was very much pushed as "you shut down the men, you need to shut down the women" thing.
Few months later the guy on the tape, along with like 1/3 of the people associated with that group, at that time, were indicted for a variety of crimes. Namely the organized stalking, and harassment of women. Mostly ex's of the members, but some others for different reasons. Most of them were convicted. This is why it was shut down. Not because of the tape. So the women's support group was targeted, and pushed out, because people believe they were getting quid pro quo for the men's group. Only for it to show it was organized, criminal, behavior that got it shut down, not their misogyny. So, in the end, these women lost their space because of a far lesser wrong, in the name of equality.
Also, I hear a lot about how men's online spaces are shut down more than women's. Both being bigoted towards the other. However, when I looked into the post discussing them getting shut-down it was always because they were doing something extra, like brigading other places, stalking, and harassing, other women on the site, and posting lots of public calls for illegal activities. They generally given more than one chance to snuff that shit out too, they just didn't. Where as most of the awful femcel kinda places either didn't that far, didn't organize like that on their space, or were warned and then the mods started shutting that shit down.
So I always have my suspicions with this topic. Not that it hasn't happened, as you say, but, the majority I have seen, weren't shutdown for such simple reasons. Though they all had people crying about how they got shut down for misogyny, yet x place with femcels didn't.
Yeah, but liberals should know better. And also brigadkmg is a problem all around reddit it's not exclusively men
And slightly related I think there is a lot of misandry in conservativism that the left refuses talk about for some reason
There is a lot of misandry in conservatism, and liberalism, and leftism. However, the root for it differs from conservatism, and the other two position. While it isn't a huge talking point, I wouldn't say it is not something that is really ignored. Maybe it is so in "pop" leftist media? Like breadtube type stuff?
I wasn't trying to imply that men's spaces, on various fora, were the only ones with bad behavior. I was pointing out that, when a lot of these places were shut down, a lot of them cried misandry because x misandrist forum is still up. However, when you look at the situation, it wasn't the misogynistic conversation that got them banned, it was the actions they coordinated on their fora. I have also seen a number of misandrist spaces get shut down too. Again though, it was because they refused to stop bad actions on their forum, and moderate it out.
Yes liberals, and leftists, should know better. Unfortunately you are broaching a subject with A LOT of strong emotional value to it. It is awful that there are, practically, no support groups for male victims of rape, and, even though there is often no indicator it is only for women, they are pushed out of those places because a lot of those women, straight up, are afraid of men. Men have traumatized them to the point where they cannot feel safe around them, and/or get a visceral reaction to a strange man being there. And yes, there is a lot of resentment in these communities towards men. They are mentally, and often physically, scarred by the actions of men. It isn't fair, but these emotions, trauma responses, etc. are not rational. They are real though, and they are exceedingly difficult to deal with. It is actually very difficult for them to truly view men as, mostly, decent human beings, because of trauma. Especially so because men are responsible for damn near all sexual violence, and homicide.
This isn't easy. There are no clear ways to deal with this situation. However, men are the root cause of most of it. As you have pointed out, the men higher on the hierarchy are incentivized, in many ways, to maintain this status quo. That is a class conflict situation, between those lower on the hierarchy, and the men who are in control. As more women come into power, both in government, and in the commercial/industrial world, things will change. Exactly how is yet to be seen.
So if we are yhe problem why try?
Are you trying to say that it is impossible to change?
Not with the way we are going about it.
The preferred alternative is a healthy relationship after enough therapy, the latter being a [pay]wall for some
There are more straight men who want a partner than women, so someone will be inevitably left out no matter the amount of therapy.