this post was submitted on 07 Jan 2024

469 points (84.7% liked)

Climate - truthful information about climate, related activism and politics.

4746 readers

932 users here now

Discussion of climate, how it is changing, activism around that, the politics, and the energy systems change we need in order to stabilize things.

As a starting point, the burning of fossil fuels, and to a lesser extent deforestation and release of methane are responsible for the warming in recent decades: Graph of temperature as observed with significant warming, and simulated without added greenhouse gases and other anthropogentic changes, which shows no significant warming

How much each change to the atmosphere has warmed the world:

Anti-science, inactivism, and unsupported conspiracy theories are not ok here.

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

silence7@slrpnk.net

469

Eating Meat Is Bad for Climate Change, and Here Are All the Studies That Prove It (sentientmedia.org)

submitted 6 months ago by veganpizza69@lemmy.world to c/climate@slrpnk.net

399 comments fedilink hide all child comments

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments

[–] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (8 children)

No one is telling you what to do, but the studies are undeniable

The studies have studies and experts denying them.. The rebuttals are a gamut of:

pointing out that the "eat less meat" conclusions are fraudulent misrepresentations of the facts
pointing out that only way cutting out meat in most developed countries would be good for the environment is if we also start ecologically re-engineering for a lower natural footprint than our regions ever had, since the livestock footprint nearly resembles that of pre-colonial days (here in the US, methane emission is within 20%)
pointing out that most attacks on meat-eating make the mistake of mathematically treating marginal land as if it could support a forest, when it cannot
And finally, pointing out that improvements in cattle diet shows dramatically more real-world promise than this contrived idea of forcing or coercing all humans to stop eating meat, with far fewer risks and side-effects to availability of balanced nutrition

Even if the oil industries weren’t such a massive environmental disaster, that wouldn’t change the wild levels of inefficiency and waste in animal agriculture

...in some countries like India. Here in the US, the cattle industry is fairly efficient, in a large part because it is highly profitable to be efficient. In my area, cattle is largely locally fed. That local feed will just as largely end up in a bonfire if we decided to wipe out the cattle population, and there would be a large increase in synthetic fertilizers that are themselves terrible for the environment. If we decided to keep the cattle population without eating them, you might be surprised to note that it would be worse for the climate than eating the cattle we have.

As a whole the meat industry is unsustainable

If that were true, it would be dying instead of dramatically improving in both margins, efficiency, and climate footprint in most countries.

whataboutism doesnt change the facts.

No. Whataboutism doesn't change the facts. On that, we can agree.

[–] Castigant@lemm.ee 6 points 6 months ago (5 children)

The studies have studies and experts denying them..

Studies and experts funded by the livestock industry, yes. Why are the studies and experts always Mitloehner, I swear...

[+] abraxas@sh.itjust.works -6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (4 children)

You understand the problem with "studies that agree with me are right, and studies that disagree with me are wrong", do you not? The OP who wrote the article is a vegan advocate.

And your NY Times article is interesting. But I come from the scientific world, and attacking scientific rigor of a reputable institution requires more than an NY Times article for me. Worse, you're only showing an argument targeting one university, one that (as far as I can tell dodging their damn paywall) isn't making any formal accusations of dishonesty or citing any bad research. If you're going to try to convince the educated world of a grand collegiate conspiracy to create junk science, you might as well be selling flat earth. Sorry.

This angle feels a lot like far-right rhetoric to me now. I'm not sure if you saw that. Of course there would be farming businesses funding a department of agricultural sustainability. Who do you think reaps the benefit of cheap and sustainable farming practices? Oh yeah, the farmers.

Here is UC Davis ASI's Funding year by year. They publish it. They're PROUD of it. Their largest private donor is a climate foundation. Most of their donor money comes in those who would represent sustainability as much (or more than) anything that would make them a giant shadow conspiracy like Marlboro of the 1950's.

But taking a step back. It's best to ask colleges and researchers. How reputable is UC Davis ASI? Can you find me a few that will put their reputation on the line to levy the implied accusation in that NY Times article? I have only met the opposite. This reeks of "antivax movement" to me.

[–] Castigant@lemm.ee 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

What? How are you comparing me to flat earth, far right, and antivax for criticizing your one source in the original comment? Like this isn't me bringing up criticism of some random researcher, it's specifically related to the "studies and experts" you referred to. And I'm not sure why you're bringing up the ASI, which as far as I can tell isn't related to the CLEAR Center other than being based at the same college.

In case you were unable to read the article due to the paywall, this is the most pertinent part:

According to internal University of California documents reviewed by The New York Times, Dr. Mitloehner’s academic group, the Clear Center at UC Davis, receives almost all its funding from industry donations and coordinates with a major livestock lobby group on messaging campaigns.

The documents show that the center, which has become a leading institution in the field of agriculture and climate, was set up in 2019 with a $2.9 million gift to be paid out over several years from the Institute for Feed Education and Research, or IFeeder, the nonprofit arm of the American Feed Industry Association, a livestock industry group that represents major agricultural companies like Cargill and Tyson.

As of April 2022, the Clear Center had also received more than $350,000 from other industry or corporate sources, the documents show, including nearly $200,000 from the California Cattle Council, a regional livestock industry group.

The article does also cite critical researchers, since you asked:

“Industry funding does not necessarily compromise research, but it does inevitably have a slant on the directions with which you ask questions and the tendency to interpret those results in a way that may favor industry,” said Matthew Hayek, an assistant professor in environmental studies at New York University.

“Almost everything that I’ve seen from Dr. Mitloehner’s communications has downplayed every impact of livestock,” he said. “His communications are discordant from the scientific consensus, and the evidence that he has brought to bear against that consensus has not been, in my eyes, sufficient to challenge it.”

The argument leans on a method developed by scientists that aims to better account for the global-warming effects of short-lived greenhouse gases like methane. However, the use of that method by an industry “as a way of justifying high current emissions is very inappropriate,” said Drew Shindell, professor of earth science at Duke University and the lead author of a landmark United Nations report on methane emissions.

The Clear Center’s argument also doesn’t account for the clearing of forests for cattle grazing, for example, or emissions from the production of cattle feed, Dr. Shindell said.

[–] abraxas@sh.itjust.works -4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

What? How are you comparing me to flat earth, far right, and antivax for criticizing your one source in the original comment?

You attacked education in general, based entirely specialized view of a subset of its funding, and not based on the content of its research.

And I’m not sure why you’re bringing up the ASI, which as far as I can tell isn’t related to the CLEAR Center other than being based at the same college.

As I mentioned, I couldn't see much of the article. I only know where much of the research comes from, and that UC Davis is a reputable institution. I should have figured I'd get the wrong UC Davis department. CLEAR center has the same situation going for it, however. It's primarily funded by organizations who objectively care about sustainability, but as expected some of its funding comes from the industries that profit from its discoveries.

Here's the profile of the person being attacked by Mr. Hayek. He's an air quality specialist by background. Here's a fairly nuanced essay from him about this very topic. He actually agrees with some of the criticisms of private funding in research in general, but also points out that it's important to know why and how much financial interest is being provided. The CLEAR center, apparently, gets a lot more public money than most sustainability initiatives.

As he says in his penultimate line: "I welcome anyone to scrutinize our work; it stands on its own merits. In the meantime, my motivations are clear: to feed a growing world and to work with all stakeholders to ensure that we can do so without destroying our planet."

As you quote:

Almost everything that I’ve seen from Dr. Mitloehner’s communications has downplayed every impact of livestock

I do not get that conclusion from what I've read of him. I'm sorry, I just don't. Yes, it's not fair that I say "the people I know who have been involved with him think he's on the up-and-up", but it's also hard to give weight to one person who simply disagrees with him on this issue.

And Mr. Hayek is the more honest response. I simply cannot find anything but unreasoned discussion in "However, the use of that method by an industry “as a way of justifying high current emissions is very inappropriate,” said Drew Shindell". Accurately calculating and reducing the effect of argricultural methane is valuable for its own sake, whether or not there are "high current emissions". Do you disagree? Do you think we should start throwing out the research because it leads to outcomes where we still have cattle? He's literally complaining about research he will not criticize the validity of. I'm sorry, I'm not ok with that.

The Clear Center’s argument also doesn’t account for the clearing of forests for cattle grazing, for example, or emissions from the production of cattle feed, Dr. Shindell said.

This is why I referred to the gishgallop elsewhere. I see no reason why anyone without an agenda would demand accounting for the clearing of forests in research about measuring and reducing the methane impact on cattle. UC Davis is not, as it would sound, releasing a bunch of studies with no purpose but to attack vegans. They are working on agricultural sustainability. If there's a real attack on all their research just being ignored for propaganda reasons, it would be the talk of all of science (again, like the antivaxers).

I'm sorry, but I trust in research and peer review, its outcomes, and its discoveries. It worked for cigarettes. It worked for global warming denial. And now it's starting to work against vegans, and vegans are getting scared.

load more comments (2 replies)

load more comments (4 replies)