this post was submitted on 20 Dec 2023
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UK plan to digitise wills and destroy paper originals "insane" say experts::Department hopes to save £4.5m a year by digitising – then binning – about 100m wills that date back 150 years

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[–] takeda@lemmy.world 69 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

I understand why it is not a good idea to digitize, as tampering might be easier to do without any traces, but why do they store wills for 150 years? One would think that by then they are outdated and no longer needed.

Edit: looks like the concern is about historical artifacts. Feels even more ridiculous than I thought. What's next, taking pictures of historical paintings and destroying originals? Why not digitize and still keep the originals?

[–] otter@lemmy.ca 43 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

Why not digitize and still keep the originals?

That's where I'm at. Why not both? Redundancy is good,

Paper copies are good to have till they're no longer necessary (edit: and apparently these aren't necessary anymore)

Digital copies are also useful for obvious reasons

[–] Lmaydev@programming.dev 20 points 10 months ago (1 children)

They aren't necessary, that's the point.

They want to preserve them as historical documents and the government is trying to cut storage costs.

[–] otter@lemmy.ca 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Oh

Well in that case I'm a lot more meh about this. Thanks!

[–] Lmaydev@programming.dev 5 points 10 months ago

Yeah I'm not a historian so I'm not sure the value of keeping the originals.

[–] XTL@sopuli.xyz 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Storing a lot of valuable paper is expensive.

[–] RainfallSonata@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Much less expensive than maintaining the digital format they're scanned into over hundreds of years, or upgrading the format each time the technology evolves. Eventually you reach a point where it's better to re-scan into the new format rather try to upgrade for the 50th time. But then you haven't maintained the originals. Under the right conditions, paper can last thousands of years.

[–] testfactor@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago (5 children)

Wait, hold on. Are you arguing that, in the long run, it's cheaper to pay rent and maintenance on facilities and personnel to caretake reams of paper than to have a bunch of PDFs on Google Drive?

Paper isn't some magical substance that doesn't need any maintenance ever. Silverfish, fire, water, and a million other things need to be actively guarded against to keep these records usable.

On the other hand, PDF has been around since 1992, and it hardly seems to be going anywhere. And even if it does, running a "PDF to NewStandard" converter on the files every 30 years or so seems unlikely to cost as much as 30yrs of rent on a physical building. And that holds true even over the course of 1000yrs. Rent's not cheap, and neither are people who maintain physical records.

Like, I'm not advocating for destroying the physical documents, but the idea that it's even remotely close to being cheaper to keep them as paper vs digitizing is an absolute fantasy.

[–] YoorWeb@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Adobe Flash entered the chat.

[–] testfactor@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

Ah, yes, flash. A program that only lasted 15 years and was a platform that could execute arbitrary applications, most of which were silly video games.

A total apples to apples comparison with an open standard format for rendering static documents with hundreds of different reader implementations that's been around for a third of a century and is used by every major world government as the core standard for electronic documents. :P

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[–] ElBarto@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago

Redundancy is good

It works for Klingons!

[–] ElderWendigo@sh.itjust.works 19 points 10 months ago

This is an idea straight out of science fiction that was meant to be a warning, not a guide. From "Rainbow's End" by Vernor Vinge.

Tiny flecks of white floated and swirled in the column of light. Snowflakes? But one landed on his hand: a fleck of paper. And now the ripping buzz of the saw was still louder, and there was also the sound of a giant vacuum cleaner...

Brrrap! A tree shredder!

Ahead of him, everything was empty bookcases, skeletons. Robert went to the end of the aisle and walked toward the noise. The air was a fog of floating paper dust. In the fourth aisle, the space between the bookcases was filled with a pulsing fabric tube. The monster worm was brightly lit from within. At the other end, almost twenty feet away, was the worm's maw - the source of the noise... The raging maw was a "Navicloud custom debinder." The fabric tunnel that stretched out behind it was a "camera tunnel..." The shredded fragments of books and magazines flew down the tunnel like leaves in a tornado, twisting and tumbling. The inside of the fabric was stiched with thousands of tiny cameras. The shreds were being photographed again and again, from every angle and orientation, till finally the torn leaves dropped into a bin just in front of Robert.

[–] Meowoem@sh.itjust.works 20 points 10 months ago (3 children)

People want the government to provide services efficiently yet the second anyone suggests not doing things the most expensive and outdated way possible everyone loses their minds.

Are you all accelerationists or just the no give only throw dog?

[–] LotrOrc@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This isn't about efficiency - if they were just digitizing it that would be fine. Getting rid of the originals in addition is a recipe for disaster

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Maintaining and keeping 500 million paper documents is expensive. If they just let them sit neglected for cheaper, then they may risk confidentiality. So they have to either properly actively maintain and secure them, or destroy them for risk of some breach of confidentiality.

Further, I don't understand what this "disaster" would look like.

[–] chitak166@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

"maintaining" paper documents is a new one to me.

It's my understanding, the less you disturb them, the longer they last.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

You have to maintain a rather large facility to care for 500 million paper documents, while keeping them organized and accessible.

You have to maintain low humidity, prevent pests like insects and rodents, and maintain vigilance against things like fire, roof leaks, and break ins.

[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Something like this. But seriously, this is how GilBates1!!1 becomes the newest billionaire.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

For archival, I think things are less controversial. No one is going to modify a will executed 100 years ago and the world will say "goly gee, we missed that, we will now take from the proper heirs and give to you".

For one, it's a closed matter even if they legitimately failed to execute on the old will.

For another, if it somehow did matter, they'd probably validate the authenticity of the digital copy at least against some air gapped signature, if not going to restore the actual document from offline.

For the voting example, I think people think too highly of the paper system. Corrupt voting infrastructure can have stuffed ballots ready to go and enough non voting registered voters to back up their ballots beyond the reasonable extent an audit would ever go. Paper votes have often been corrupted. Most we ever do is recount, and if the ballots were stuffed, this would do nothing.

[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 2 points 10 months ago

I present to you, somebody who hasn't read the article.

[–] Womble@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

Personally I'd rather just not cut government funding to the bone and force them to to do things like this and sacrificing long term archiving on the altar of efficiency.

[–] RegalPotoo@lemmy.world 14 points 10 months ago

They have good form in spectacularly fucking this up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal

[–] unreasonabro@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's not insane, it's malicious. Done with ill intent. How many times do we have to see shit like this before we stop giving obvious evil the benefit of the doubt?

[–] Meowoem@sh.itjust.works 7 points 10 months ago

Saving money for the tax payer by doing things a better way is evil?

[–] ElBarto@sh.itjust.works 12 points 10 months ago

Man some hackers gonna be raking in the inheritance of their extremely large family.

[–] rockandsock@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Isn't 4.5 million pounds just the tea and biscuit budget for parliament?

They want to destroy historical documents to save a rounding error in the government budget?

Let one of big wealthy universities look after the historically significant ones. That should save a bunch of money right there.

[–] mannycalavera@feddit.uk 8 points 10 months ago (16 children)

The answer seems simple. Digitise the wills and any of historical value as identified by an independent body made up of Twitter historians can keep the originals for prosperity and research 😂.

Digitise the lot and start with new wills. I understand the value to historians of keeping old pieces of paper but at some point the costs of that have to be evaluated against the benefits. You can't just say "it's of an unquantifiable amount therefore we need to keep them", that's such a lazy cop out.

In fact I'm increasingly frustrated that all legal documents aren't digitised. Shuffling paper around is so backwards and a nightmare to search and index efficiently.

[–] tabular@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

If I care about data never being altered without permission then paper wins over digital, no contest. Paper is not immune to forgery but you can't automate breaking into millions of physical buildings to target certain individuals or mass destroy the documents.

That is why countries using electronic voting machines over paper should be considered an act of the poor, ignorance or corruption.

[–] kittyjynx@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

"Hanging chads" on paper ballots helped Bush swing/steal the election from Gore. Paper ballots have a lot of problems too. At least in California every vote on an electronic voting machine generates a paper ballot.

[–] tabular@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

Paper systems have problems and years of experience solving them. Multiple parties with different interests watch to verify the input and counting process. Electronic is not watchable, tye result is unverifable - it's not fit for purpose.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

A government curated paper copy is hardly any more impervious to tampering than a digital copy.

If a government were so inclined, they could produce a paper resembling the original easily, just as they could a digital copy.

Now you could make an argument for digital records to require an air gapped archive as well, if you fear a fully online copy could be compromised by a non government or foreign government entity, but that's not paper v. Digital, that's online versus offline storage.

Note I was recently dealing with the estate of someone who died, and we had what we thought was the most canonical hard copy of the will, but the court rejected it as a duplicate and said the will was invalid unless we found a true original. Fortunately the will was within what we could legally do without the will (but with more work), but suffice to say a government digital record of the will would have worked better than any hard copy that we actually had.

[–] tabular@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

I don't know anything about tamping paper documents, only that it's difficult in an election when everyone is watching and that we can't watch computer bits.

Offline is certainly more secure than online but software is almost guaranteed to have bugs. An attack is potentially as simple as plugging in an USB stick into the right device anywhere in the chain of creating, storing and fetching the data to view the contents.

The convenience of a digital will may be overall more worthwhile than any security advantages paper has. I fear governments may require users to submit the will using their own proprietary 'black-box' software.

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[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

What the article doesn't reveal is how they want to digitise this stuff and where it'll be stored. Will it be on IPFS? On a blockchain? A public cloud like AWS where the bill might jump unexpectly to more than 4.5M pounds a year?

It might be an OK idea, but it feels like this will be horribly bungled.

CC BY-NC-SA 4.0

[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 5 points 10 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


But Tom Holland, the classical and medieval historian and co-host of The Rest is History podcast, said the proposal to empty shelves at the Birmingham archive was “obviously insane”.

Ministers believe digitisation will speed up access to the papers, but the proposal has provoked a backlash among historians and archivists who took to X to decry it as “bananas” and “a seriously bad idea”.

The proposal comes amid growing concern at the fragility of digital archives, after a cyber-attack on the British Library left the online catalogue and digitised documents unavailable to users since late October.

He said the idea that officials can choose which wills to keep because, in the words of the MoJ, they “belong to notable individuals or have significant historical interest”, is “the typical arrogance of bureaucracy”.

He cited the example of Mary Seacole, the Jamiacan nurse who helped British soldiers during the Crimean war in the 1850s, whose story has been revived in recent years.

Digitalisation allows us to move with the times and save the taxpayer valuable money, while preserving paper copies of noteworthy wills which hold historical importance.”


The original article contains 883 words, the summary contains 185 words. Saved 79%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] TotalFat@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

Did they learn nothing from Doctor Who?

[–] linearchaos@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

I mean you could do it with a otc tape library, a SAN, and a relatively inexpensive offsite tape agreement. You'd spend a couple mil setting it up. But tape, disk and support wouldn't be unreasonable moving forward.

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