this post was submitted on 30 Mar 2024
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If your security relies on hidden information then it's at risk of being broken at any time by someone who will find the information in some way. Open source security is so much stronger because it works independently of system knowledge. See all the open source cryptography that secures the web for example.
Open source poc and fix increases awareness of issues and helps everyone to make progress. You will also get much more eyes to verify your analysis and fix, as well as people checking if there could other consequences in other systems. Some security specialists are probably going to create techniques to detect this kind of sophisticated attack in the future.
This doesn't happen with closed source.
If some system company/administrator is too lazy to update, the fault is on them, not on the person who made all the information available for your to understand and fix the issue.
If the vulnerability is in the wild, what other security mechanisms do you have until it's patched?
In this case, downgrading to the not affected version. If there's no possible downgrade, stopping the compromised system until it is fixed.
Keeping the vulnerable system up because you think nobody else should know is a bet, I don't think it's sound. State actors are investing a lot to find and exploit those vulnerabilities, in this case probably even funded the implementation of the vulnerability, so I think you should assume that any vulnerability you discover is already used.
Crowd sourcing vulnerability analysis and detection doesn’t make open source software inherently more secure.
Closed source software has its place and it isn’t inherently evil or bad.
This event shows the good and bad of the open source software world but says NOTHING about closed source software.
It does, because many more eyes can find issues, as illustrated by this story.
Closed source isn't inherently bad, but it's worse than open source in many cases including security.
I think you're the only one here thinking publishing PoC is bad.
This is literally how I make my living and this is the only comment I’ve made so I’m not sure where you get the idea I think publishing vulnerabilities and PoC are bad … again I literally do this for a living.
Finding vulnerabilities and reporting them is literally what pays my mortgage. Open Source, Closed Source, they both have their merits but to say one is inherently more secure because of the reasons you’re specifying is tacitly false.
My comment is literally only about what you said which pushes a thought that slides to far in one direction. There is a reason no nation state will open source their military hardware.
Then please explain why the reasons specified here are false belong that argument from authority.
I don’t need to repeat myself but that’s all I’d be doing.
You’re making the argument that open source software inherently does this better and I’m telling you that you’re wrong. I’m going to cite myself, a 20 year veteran in the field.
It can do it better and often times it does work out this way.
Closed source software also has value and use and for its own set of reasons could make the argument that it is more secure because of access controls and supply chain management and traditional security mechanisms.
I think you read what I wrote as a “no you’re entirely wrong” whereas what I said was “you’re asserting things that aren’t true which is weakening the argument”
Frankly though given the lack of response to what I actually said by anyone I’m just going to rest on knowing in the real world my input is considered valid, here where we’re being fanatics … idk for all you know I’m a bot spewing AI generated drivel.
Maybe the disconnect here is I’m talking about practical application because of experience vs theoretical application because of ideology.
No I don't think you said I was entirely wrong, that part was clear enough.
My issue is more with your argument from authority and personal experience. It is very easy to be biased by personal experience, especially when it brings good money.
So I'll put my personal experience too (which is also a low value argument). From the outside it may seem this is well done in big companies. But the reality is that this is often a big mess and security often depends on some guy, if any, actually having some standards and enforcing them, until they leave because the company doesn't value those tasks. But since it's closed source, nobody knows about it. With open source, there's more chance more people will look at this system and find issues.
I don't doubt some ultra sensitive systems like nuclear weapons have a functional closed source security process because the government understands the risk well enough. But I think there are way more closed source systems, at lower danger level but which still impacts people's security, that are managed with a much lower standard than if they were open-sourced.
I do agree that your words are in fact a low value argument. We’ve found common ground.
Your heart is in the right place but there is nuance you’re clobbering by not being willing to be open minded.
You have provided no valuable argument except "believe my experience", so I am answering with an equally weak one. Provide me some good quality study and I will be happy to change my mind. I recognize this lack of enlightening information is pretty aligned with closed source philosophy.
I think you asking me for “quality study” informs me that I don’t want to talk to you about this anymore.
I understand ideologically you’re all for open source software (so am I, but you can’t see that) and you believe there is no merit to close sourced software. You believe open source software is inherently more secure and nothing will convince you otherwise and to be honest I just don’t care.
In the real world your argument falls flat, the ideology is great but practically it doesn’t shake out that way. If you’re incapable of recognizing the merits AND flaws in both systems then I don’t have any desire to continue talking to myself.
I’ve not at one moment argued against anything other than your narrow view, I am a proponent of open source software and am a contributor to a project I guarantee impacts your life every day. I’m not shitting on open source and never would.
All of the things you say CAN make it better and many times do. That said it doesn’t inherently make it better and just because you crowdsource doesn’t mean you got it right. There is nuance. Democracy always fails on the idea that 1 Million Voices are smarter than 1, which isn’t always the case.
Open Source Software ought to be used EVERYWHERE IT MAKES SENSE and not used where it doesn’t.
The problem is when people make statements that just aren’t true to push for something that can stand on its own without false narratives.
A lot of straw man arguments. Overall, I think we agree on the value of open source.
But this issue wasn't found because of code analysis per se, but because of microbenchmarking.
That's a good point, but wasn't the micro benchmarking possible, published and analyzed because it is open source? Also the vulnerability analysis, impact analysis and fix can be peer reviewed by more yes.
This story illustrates that some eyes can find some issues. For proper discussion we need proper data and ratios, only then we could compare. How many issues there are in open and closed source software? How many of them are getting fixed? Unfortunately, we don't have this data.
I think some of this data is actually available for open source projects by scanning public repositories, although it would be a lot of work to collect it.